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Laser with a carbon mast??
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    Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 10:08am
All dinghies will fall over at some point. In my view good ergonomics in recovery phase is an as important part of design as comfort during sailing phase. Yes you should spend more time sailing than recovering but it's at recovering time when the chickens come home to roost.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 9:57am
In a Laser, when you capsize in most cases you can swivel over the gunwale onto the centreboard, the boat is light and it pops up easily ... I practiced this extensively in my formative years.

In the Solo, the cockpit geometry does not encourage climbing over the gunwale, any attempt to find a foot step causes the Solo to turtle and in any case a Solo comes up dry if you "unweight it" and swim around.  

I should add that the much denigrated coffee table handles come into their own when trying to pull yourself back in after a capsize.

Next problem is that the centreboard is often just out of reach from the water ... righting lines or a buoyancy aid that doesn't ride up helps.

I suspect that the Laser and the Solo are an equal pain in the a**e in the event of a capsize to windward, when the helm may end up being a spectator to their boat blowing down wind without them.

As Fab100 points out, the capsize is best avoided in the first place, and for some a Solo is a brilliantly stable platform in a blow.
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 9:36am
Originally posted by tink

50% of the rescues I’ve done in recent years are people able to right but not get back in Solos. Never an issue with a Laser

What is it with Solo sailors and all the doggy-paddling about when they capsize. Why are they in the water in the first place? You're supposed to be on it, not in it.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 9:33am
Tink. That's a big tick for the Laser, especially at sea. Absolutely no worries about sorting it out if you put it in (barring gear breakage of course but that applies to everything). 
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 8:55am
50% of the rescues I’ve done in recent years are people able to right but not get back in Solos. Never an issue with a Laser
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 7:34am
^ Really interested in that comparison to the Solo, Paramedic.  Surely the Solo is quicker to rig, has just as much accessible class racing and a deeper cockpit (albeit, with a shin trap for the unweary)?  Sure you can’t get a competitive Solo for under a grand like you can a Laser, but that lack of depreciation helps come sale time.  I’m not clear what the Laser offered over lockdown that the Solo didn’t other than not caring about the wear and tear on a non-race boat.
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 6:32am
Originally posted by CT249

However, everything's relative. Any boat is uncomfortable if you are hiking hard enough, and any trap boat seems to have its own issues. For vast numbers of us, the Laser's positives outweigh the negatives

I kind of agree with this, the ability to buy a good one for £1500 or a reasonable one for half that or less if you're careful and know where to look (Goes for any boat) is a major plus point. 

The problem with that particular positive (Lets leave aside speed of rigging, cockpit space [more than a solo] and accessible class racing) is if it isn't a nice boat to sail the vast majority of people will only tolerate it as long as they have to and by that I mean till they get fed up of sailing because of it or can afford something better.

I bought one to sail over covid because it ticked all sorts of boxes that no other boat did in the price range. I sold it a few weeks ago because, frankly, with access to what I regard as proper sailing restored I don't need it. If the rudder worked, mainsheet didn't catch and the sails lasted longer than 15 minutes my Solo might find its position under threat.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 5:42am
CT249.  Thumbs Up. I pretty much learned to sail in a Laser out of a tidal river via a tight harbour mouth on open sea. When I say learnt to sail, I mean that, how to treat a boat kindly and feel the feed back. I make little pretence to being a good racer but the Laser taught me to be a sympathetic sailor. 
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 2:10am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by 423zero

Looking at the clones, doesn't appear they have tried to fix any of the issues.

We forget that the Laser was never intended to be what its grown into.

It was supposed to be a beach boat, easy to transport, rig, and quick to get afloat. A job it still does fairly well, but as a racing boat it has niggles and flaws that everyone bar one person that I can see think need sorting.

If the clones are aimed within the same marketplace it doesn't matter. They are unlikely to go out in much more than a F3 and will do the job just as well - it comes down to price.

As a racing boat however..........

Yes and no. The very first sketch was intended to be a beach boat (or actually a "cottage boat" as Ian Bruce or Bruce Kirby told me).  But then, as they said, the inevitable tendency of Ian, Hans and Bruce moved it to more of a performance boat and then they very soon realised that its real niche was not so much as a Sunfish competitor/beach boat, but as a one design racer.  That's why it ended up as quite a different boat to the original "beach boat" concept.


It does have niggle and flaws and yes, it's hard to see why the class can't do a few small things that would cost basically nothing and not obsolete existing boats. You could allow deck pads; create a kit to stop the mainsheet catching; and change the rudder rake. They could all be retrofitted if one wanted to, and they would make the boat better to sail.

However, everything's relative. Any boat is uncomfortable if you are hiking hard enough, and any trap boat seems to have its own issues. For vast numbers of us, the Laser's positives outweigh the negatives.

I've only sailed two of the newer classes brought in to "replace" the Laser but I was fairly underwhelmed. Both of them seemed to lose some of the things I really like in the Laser (ie its ability to roll tack so well and to be steered with heel downwind so much) without giving much improvement in other areas. One of them I found a bit eerie because it seemed to have the characteristics I don't like in skiff types, without the characteristics I do like in skiffs - but others love it and good on 'em.


Edited by CT249 - 26 Apr 22 at 2:17am
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by getafix

As an ex-L*ser sailor who would never go back, I do find it still highly amusing that through all the tortuous tussling and grumpily accepted updates "they" have fixed the crappy mast, sail (ish) and controls and still not gotten rid of that total sh1tb0x which is the rudder .... it would be a far more pleasant experience to sail if you could steer properly, particularly in stronger winds

The mistake many make, depending on their weight is thinking they are 20 fit enough to sail  full rig. The Radial / ILCA 6 is an awesome boat for the sub 75kg sailor. Fraction of the cost of an Aero, Solo etc and including regular sail renewal ownership still low, the changes in design have been minimal over the history of the class. I can go to an event within a days drive at least every two weeks in the season. Fantastic quality training frequently available plus more training media most or classes combined. If you’re having issues with handling a Laser then you definitely need to sailing Laser, if you are finding the rudder too small you’re doing something wrong. It’s not the boat it’s the nut on the tiller. As for carbon top mast, when I bend my alloy one I’ll get one still 1000s still in the bank compared to the alternative classes. I could, but won’t sell mine tomorrow and including two new sails and a few other bits cost less the £50 an month over two year 

This is a tired old argument Tink, yes of course keeping the boat flatter helps* with control but the simple fact of the L*ser rudder is the blade is too small and it's raked backwards.  Even rockstars end up with rooster tails off the crappy thing and weather helm.  Just allowing owners to file a groove to allow the blade to go vertical would be a massive help.

*as with all boats
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