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Laser with a carbon mast??
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser with a carbon mast??
    Posted: 23 Apr 22 at 9:29am
Originally posted by 423zero

Don't forget the main sheet catching under the corners, the vertical sides of the cockpit.


When you get down to it, I can't think of a single part of the boat that isn't pretty awful.
As a boat, it wants a clean sheet of paper, design something better.

But we excuse all that between the 1 minute gun and the finish line.
Because all that matters is racing the other boats.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 22 at 1:40pm
well, I got pretty close to buying another Laser recently - but then I looked at the competition I'd be sailing against... only one other guy looked north of 70kg and 5' 6; given all the racing is usually in the mornings before the wind picks up, I decided an eBike would be better value for money.

Ultimately you buy a Laser to race against other people - but sometimes you have to accept when you're just not going to fit in and the racing's not for you.
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 22 at 3:37pm
.... It’s comfy down wind, no kneeling vs Aero, Blaze, Super Nova.

But will still stuff your knees in time anyway .... Wink  But we were always told it was 'poor technique' of course...  Yes of course ....Well they would say that, always did back in the day.  Don't like kneeling in the alternatives mentioned ?  ... just get some decent kneepads. There you are solved it for you !  Volleyball ones can be very good and a third of the price of many inferior 'marine' ones btw.    The Laser is still around and will be for a while yet - but it is never going to tackle some very basic and inbuilt design faults and niggles.... that would risk making all earlier ones worth even less.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 22 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by getafix

As an ex-L*ser sailor who would never go back, I do find it still highly amusing that through all the tortuous tussling and grumpily accepted updates "they" have fixed the crappy mast, sail (ish) and controls and still not gotten rid of that total sh1tb0x which is the rudder .... it would be a far more pleasant experience to sail if you could steer properly, particularly in stronger winds

The mistake many make, depending on their weight is thinking they are 20 fit enough to sail  full rig. The Radial / ILCA 6 is an awesome boat for the sub 75kg sailor. Fraction of the cost of an Aero, Solo etc and including regular sail renewal ownership still low, the changes in design have been minimal over the history of the class. I can go to an event within a days drive at least every two weeks in the season. Fantastic quality training frequently available plus more training media most or classes combined. If you’re having issues with handling a Laser then you definitely need to sailing Laser, if you are finding the rudder too small you’re doing something wrong. It’s not the boat it’s the nut on the tiller. As for carbon top mast, when I bend my alloy one I’ll get one still 1000s still in the bank compared to the alternative classes. I could, but won’t sell mine tomorrow and including two new sails and a few other bits cost less the £50 an month over two year 
I speak as a man that sailed a Laser and Laser Radial for over 20 years . 
The Laser is many things ,it has great class racing , a good class association, and is stunning value for money second hand. BUT it’s not a awesome boat , the world has moved on and it hasn’t  enough.  It’s a 1960s Mini Cooper in a 2022 world . Yes it’s now fitted with air con and it’s fitted with a better radio, but no one’s looked at changing the engine, steering or brakes  LOL Smile

Does that matter, speed comes from length it has that vs Solo, Solution, Streaker. It’s comfy down wind, no kneeling vs Aero, Blaze, Super Nova. Easy to right and recover vs Solo, OK. Yes the mast and sail are from the 60s  but it’s a small price to pay for the long list of advantages. Steering is fine, like all dinghies windward heel to head up leeward heel to bear away with a wiggly thing at the back to aid when needed 


Does it matter ? If your young ,fit and class racing is the most important thing in your sailing world , of course not .
But if your like me and your sick to death with people like you telling you every problem you have with a laser is a lack of technique, yes it does. 
So I’ve changed class and l no longer had any of these problems with any of the other boats I have own since,  funny that isn’t ?  LOL Wink


Edited by Grumpycat - 23 Apr 22 at 4:43pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 22 at 5:29pm
^ in fairness to the Laser, when I first saw one and subsequently owned one in the mid seventies the Laser was the most awesome boat compared with anything else that was around, I spent hours reaching back and forth with big smiles.  Ok there were challenges, notably the main sheet on the corner of the transom, but I will here no bad of Bruce Kirby’s creation.  


All that is bad has come about by the poor direction taken by Performance Sailcraft.  Not sure the Olympics did the class a favour either but hey ho. 



I quite liked the simple kicker and controls and the creativity required to make them effective … including having a mate hang off the end of the boom while I pulled the kicker on.


Edited by davidyacht - 23 Apr 22 at 5:30pm
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 22 at 7:35am
Originally posted by tink

Yes the mast and sail are from the 60s  but it’s a small price to pay for the long list of advantages. Steering is fine, like all dinghies windward heel to head up leeward heel to bear away with a wiggly thing at the back to aid when needed

The whole package is of its time, and its done a great job but key parts of it are now conservatively 30 years out of date and I just don't see a long list of advantages over its immediate rivals anymore and haven't for some time. The only advantages that I can see are you can buy a reasonable one for £500 and it takes 10 minutes to rig up from trailer and tow bar - thats why I bought one over lockdown.

The GP14 also was a thing of its time, reached the point where they could do better and revamped to suit. Possibly easier to get through with the GP class than the Laser, but id imagine Jack Holt wasn't too enthusiastic about it (End of his life would have been around then, he'd have been alive while they were planning it at least) and its still an international class - but they saw which way the wind was blowing and while not everyone's cup of tea its still a relatively large two man class.

The point being there isn't much wrong with the hull, or even the construction or nowadays the fit out or rig. But if they want to compete with the Aero as anything other than the Costco version the rudder needs throwing away and the mainsheet system needs tidying. This would cost very little and would - or could - be retrofittable to every existing boat at relatively little expense if they play the game on margin. 

To not do that after doing the rest simply doesn't make sense, it would make the boat more accessible and even less like standing a 1992 Peugeot 106 next to modern A class Merc.

You may want to review how your sail without a rudder..........;)


Edited by Paramedic - 24 Apr 22 at 7:40am
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 22 at 4:20pm
Not a dinghy sailing book ever published (other than focused ones on tactics, weather etc) that doesn’t state the secret to winning races is keeping the boat flat, no flatter than that etc etc. I was at a recent ILCA event with pro photographer who published the pics of the racing, as she was stationary the pics where in race order, shock horror as you went down the fleet the angle of heel increased.

On all points of sail and during all manoeuvres it is critical to keep attached flow on the sail, something not possible if you aren’t in control of the main sheet

Recently someone said to me that if today Ben Ainslie sailed a Laser with the techniques he used in Sydney he wouldn’t make the cut for the medal race. For displacement boats I challenge anyone to name a class that is still advancing handling techniques mor that the humble ILCA.
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 22 at 4:35pm
The main sheet corner issue certainly learns you to control it.
Robert
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 22 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by tink

Not a dinghy sailing book ever published (other than focused ones on tactics, weather etc) that doesn’t state the secret to winning races is keeping the boat flat, no flatter than that etc etc.

Here’s one, specific to Laser sailing, that says flat isn’t fastest. 
https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705816X00161/1-s2.0-S1877705816307512/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEMH%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIBQlL9Lt8PmHJhiHBm8popHRg%2FdApNnTOovIGl50INa%2FAiEAgaH33k%2FIBmBjwkW91QS%2Buq7Hyv1FI9upqoiuKzYvgy4q0gQIehAEGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDJoQI2H2od3Wklc2PyqvBOU6RT4a%2FIP0H29yq7XYbdi%2FWCLW%2FOH7YCExln5ufM0lAg4Dgv1tCuMjIcDxkUFo8HCUImDGe7PrdGlylsB2%2Be1gw3CbVzfB7X25tl7rGdUWTVXLhPAQZLxO2Yc%2FhRXTZglwOiVZGoJGiKy0do1bhC5CZBKZ5aLAc2DbcfDUmaRwwe7pcGXrff8dIsTICMQAtVfpSwtphK18TlvjNfmwz0yNqMUCOngG8ZDGrZ5JkIbNoJIYaNw6bgy%2FNm0KIAGzhIbtTspjur%2FInJ6GER1ZZyfXy4RoUhBJo4FCiDf33aAEGmNwE4AMH5hLdkRWurqsx0LlVO2SVEAvDEKdIuIJuax9nG8MzwtgUHQlQvRDpA%2FaV21k8UJNebtuj5HRNE%2FwlxVJyv7ZTuTyoisZ%2FtkJbfDIKCbKCll3QnZoFoGDkl9ccu8I%2BAR%2BqSIsI2%2Be%2FcCIZeWp78Seb29Mt45Net6D%2BOvgRvJxHzt3h1fn%2BlcoMNt2MhHPGx728GmC1tso3kq6k29r9RLEStL%2F6Wl4yNke%2FP27qPKOGkwVspT1Nhz7EEVvVbpWQ4PTByBnyevvqL7dZPCJi7s%2B5nEAQCr%2FBHV0jx6SIIwOgzlpP6YXeEHJmlVoHm6x6LTZxyBoJ%2Fozq36IPKvsHYVxokrmCOJQddWO%2BFFVQrbDToTf8kBDufw%2FmtDAky8uf4hx57VOXKQndEhbSSZCnIz8SduD9orBJHRuQ2A1MdMJX00WZo7QrbOfB30w%2FfmVkwY6qQEDIjFlrDxnfoBkmiI55eXr4hAKMc5So%2BiEwh93yULc8Q0uPhLXpglIda0QzcWMBgJFWZZyoyCcwak5KHUv7KFJHxIpVPrUtt1ToTuxbFlceR40puPg0Tsc%2FBQMWvpv5O3ioN61rDDu5mbqBiB%2B12jAZhmHSPEpgWpch6MpRn8YS%2BRftFZqzen%2BznT0KUz2Vd6rBm%2By9DHQobhYfsnLmDWEk2NzFHItu6Qz&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20220424T173210Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYUKIQV6ZN%2F20220424%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=fa6bff8ab3c00482c6005bf969f65ffddbefe64ee3e02287f5180f7a0ec7fe12&hash=be9e53faafd563c2af46d805ccebc4a96760b47bc36e8a22d22b721eb388f692&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705816307512&tid=spdf-57fb2294-814c-4c23-b311-433238dc9b13&sid=c08d87586901d147139b1f43ee0381b0867egxrqb&type=client&ua=4d56525e5b550e505403&rr=701093a40f0972ea
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 22 at 6:37pm
LOL[QUOTE=tink]Not a dinghy sailing book ever published (other than focused ones on tactics, weather etc) that doesn’t state the secret to winning races is keeping the boat flat, no flatter than that etc etc. I was at a recent ILCA event with pro photographer who published the pics of the racing, as she was stationary the pics where in race order, shock horror as you went down the fleet the angle of heel increased.

On all points of sail and during all manoeuvres it is critical to keep attached flow on the sail, something not possible if you aren’t in control of the main sheet

Recently someone said to me that if today Ben Ainslie sailed a Laser with the techniques he used in Sydney he wouldn’t make the cut for the medal race. For displacement boats I challenge anyone to name a class that is still advancing handling techniques mor that the humble ILCA.
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Tink. . Look  I think every one on here understands the strengths of the ILCA/Laser and the class as well . But the weaknesses of the boat design are there for everyone to see and yes you can learn techniques so you can overcome these weaknesses ( which most newer singlehanded classes don’t have ) .But that doesn’t mean the weaknesses are not there and that most of them could  have been eradicated with some low cost modifications . 
The arguments you put forward are the same as the ones used by the Sunfish class in the USA. 
And how many of us on this side of the pond think that great rewarding dinghy ?  Wink




Edited by Grumpycat - 24 Apr 22 at 6:43pm
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