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Laser with a carbon mast??
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Oatsandbeans View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser with a carbon mast??
    Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 11:14am
This may be more complex that just matching the quasi static mechanical properties. Polymeric materials are actually viscoelastic. Simply put they have solid properties (elastic) and liquid properties (viscous ). This means that their response is complex and not purely elastic (like a metal). Engineers don’t consider this, (because they don’t understand it and can’t model it)but we see it all the time when we look at polymers.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

....
It’s only the top section and it is designed to replicate the same mast bend so the only real difference is the the fact it weighs a bit lighter ( and before a ILCA sailor comes on and says it weighs the same as the old ali section . This was confirmed to me in writing by the Australian manufacturer  Smile )

....


Does this refer tot he official ILCA composite spars, which have been around maybe 7 years?, or maybe to the unofficial ones which a certain well known spar maker was selling before that?

The weight of the ali spars can vary, 'off the shelf' ali tube is not that finely toleranced.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 11:39am
Originally posted by A2Z

But *all* the mechanical properties cannot be identical else the composite one would also deform plastically and stay bent.   I guess the only ones that need to be matched are weight, EI and outer diameter. And how the properties change with temperature in a range of -10 to +40 should be matched.


All that's needed is for the spars to make the boat go pretty much the same speed.

Same as withthe MK1/MK2 sails, they are a little different, and people may sail a little differently to get the best out of them, but on the water, they are not different enough to affect the outcomes of races significantly.

It becomes irrelevant after a coupe of seasons when all the top sailors are using the same kit. The old kit is generally then a bit tired anyway.

Likewise the GRP foils, no big performance gain relative to a properly fettled old blade, but easier to keep in good nick so everyone has the same.

People who actually sail Lasers at club level are generally not able to use the equipment as an excuse unless it's really clapped out.
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Posts: 30 		Post Options Post Options   Quote seasailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 11:58am
I haven't read all of the chat but my understanding is that carbon lower mast is now legal on the ILCA 6, but not on the ILCA7.

I've done a fair bit of medium quality Laser/Laser Radial club racing in my time and never bent nor broken a bottom section.

My problem with the carbon bottom section is not that it may or may not be slightly lighter, bendier or whatever, it's that it costs upwards of £900 which, coupled with the cost of a carbon/composite top section, means that a Laser Radial mast costs some £1,500 quid, which is more than my boat is worth! 
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by Grumpycat

....
It’s only the top section and it is designed to replicate the same mast bend so the only real difference is the the fact it weighs a bit lighter ( and before a ILCA sailor comes on and says it weighs the same as the old ali section . This was confirmed to me in writing by the Australian manufacturer  Smile )

....


Does this refer tot he official ILCA composite spars, which have been around maybe 7 years?, or maybe to the unofficial ones which a certain well known spar maker was selling before that?

The weight of the ali spars can vary, 'off the shelf' ali tube is not that finely toleranced.

The official ILCA top section. The lighter weight has also been confirmed on Performance Sailcraft Australia fb page .
Personally I don’t think there is any performance advantage for the average ILCA sailor but I do know a couple of sailors that are racing against ILCA sailors using them that think there is a very small performance gain in certain conditions. Could just be in their own minds though  LOL
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by seasailor


My problem with the carbon bottom section is not that it may or may not be slightly lighter, bendier or whatever, it's that it costs upwards of £900 which, coupled with the cost of a carbon/composite top section, means that a Laser Radial mast costs some £1,500 quid, which is more than my boat is worth! 

Think yourself lucky the two piece mast for my D-zero is a lot more than that and I don’t have the freedom of picking up second hand class legal ali spars or buying new replica spars .  Wink


Edited by Grumpycat - 20 Apr 22 at 12:56pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by Grumpycat

....
It’s only the top section and it is designed to replicate the same mast bend so the only real difference is the the fact it weighs a bit lighter ( and before a ILCA sailor comes on and says it weighs the same as the old ali section . This was confirmed to me in writing by the Australian manufacturer  Smile )

....


Does this refer tot he official ILCA composite spars, which have been around maybe 7 years?, or maybe to the unofficial ones which a certain well known spar maker was selling before that?

The weight of the ali spars can vary, 'off the shelf' ali tube is not that finely toleranced.

The official ILCA top section. The lighter weight has also been confirmed on Performance Sailcraft Australia fb page .
Personally I don’t think there is any performance advantage for the average ILCA sailor but I do know a couple of sailors that are racing against ILCA sailors using them that think there is a very small performance gain in certain conditions. Could just be in their own minds though  LOL

How many grammes lighter exactly?

It's not like a carbon Merlin mast vs a Proctor D is it?
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 5:07pm
As an ex-L*ser sailor who would never go back, I do find it still highly amusing that through all the tortuous tussling and grumpily accepted updates "they" have fixed the crappy mast, sail (ish) and controls and still not gotten rid of that total sh1tb0x which is the rudder .... it would be a far more pleasant experience to sail if you could steer properly, particularly in stronger winds
Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 22 at 5:18pm
Tbh with out checking though three years worth of email I am not totally sure.
If I remember correctly it was in the 300g range.

PS. For anyone that’s missing iGRF and wondering what  is up to, he is busy telling someone on the Solution dinghy fb page to STFU.  LOL.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 22 at 9:32am
Originally posted by getafix

As an ex-L*ser sailor who would never go back, I do find it still highly amusing that through all the tortuous tussling and grumpily accepted updates "they" have fixed the crappy mast, sail (ish) and controls and still not gotten rid of that total sh1tb0x which is the rudder .... it would be a far more pleasant experience to sail if you could steer properly, particularly in stronger winds

this.... in fact, there was a time when I considered buying an MPS rudder and stock and converting it for use on a Rooster 8.1 setup for club racing.  It wouldn't have been a bad boat, for a fraction of the cost of something a lot nicer.
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