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    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:44pm
What a predictably disappointing end to a thread.  This forum really has lost its way.  Mark, you should kill the forum off (not just this thread). It is not a good advert for the sport we all love. 
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deadrock View Drop Down
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:42pm

Some young sailors (or parents) less well-informed than some on this forum may be tempted to buy a new 'Laser' with a view to racing. The recent appearance of new Lasers for sale with 218000+ boat numbers is an added concern. (New ILCAs have reached similar numbers; I already know of one duplicate.) I understand that ILCA-UK has taken steps over the past couple of years to inform and educate the RYA and its Junior classes, whose sailors feed the ILCA4 and ILCA6 classes, to reduce the chance of a youngster turning up at a UKLA Qualifier only to learn that they cannot take part. That would be soul-destroying, and not just for the sailor. We all want to avoid that.


Contrary to what some on this forum appear to believe, boats and equipment that are not class-legal are subject to protest at any racing event run anywhere under the RRS, not just class-association events. The canard that it's OK to use illegal kit for club racing has been peddled for many years by retailers of 'replacement' or replica sails & kit, though some are careful to avoid saying that their 'replacement' sails are suitable for racing.


If sailing clubs are affiliated to the RYA (and most are), they are bound by the WS regulations, the RRS and, in many cases, by the RYA code of conduct known as the Racing Charter. Under the RRS a club cannot change class rules by NOR without the CA's approval – and you know how likely that is. (In the latest RRS only NORs can change class rules. SIs cannot change class rules under any circumstances; any such SIs are now doubly invalid.) Clubs are therefore not in a position to 'permit' out-of-class Lasers or replacement/replica sails.


Moreover, a sailor that enters a boat for racing, knowing that it does not measure, commits a breach of Rule 69.1 (Misconduct). Entering an event with an out-of-class Laser, knowing it is not class-legal, might result in disqualification and a stiff telling-off. Repeated events have more severe penalties. Doing as ‘Demelza’ suggests, disguising a boat with an overlaid false WS plaque, might lead to the perpetrator finding another sport more congenial.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:37pm
Checked 'HIS' info, states he is a 'male'  Cool 
 I thought it was you  Wink


Edited by 423zero - 03 Feb 22 at 7:38pm
Robert
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I think he's gone


That's a shame, pity, then we can't have anyone on here to make the place interesting can we?

Oh and how do you know it's a he, Demelza is Poldarks wife no?

I was enjoying that thread, waking up all the dinosaurs with all their axes ready to grind, can't have anyone new, well done troops.
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'.


Straight out of the Laser Performance spin book, and basically nonsense. To my mind either shill or useful idiot, which comes to the same thing.

Remember its a lesson of the internet that there is no position, no matter how daft, that you can't find someone who will apparently genuinely argue for it.

I have listened to most of the Laser Podcasts, on a few occasions in the quick question round Lilly asks Olympians which Lasers are the best, they all say Australian ones and say they are stiffer and have better mast rake. 
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

.....

if it is not built to  , and approved  as, meeting the Specifications of the class it is counterfeit 

signifant numbers of 'counterfeit'  products in a variety of sectors are built  on the same lines   as the licence holder  builds  their , they are QA fails , they are 'overruns' etc ...  the difference is LP no longer hold a legitimate contract  to build  the boat


The word counterfeit can have different interpretations, including legal meaning, in different situations, but generally for goods to be counterfeit, there has to be a deception. If LP sells me a Laser and I know it's not an ILCA, there is no deception. AIUI, LP require no contract with ILCA or anyone else to sell Laser dinghies in the UK. Their legitimate contract is with the buyer only. You could be on dodgy ground implying they are breaking a law here. In the UK, counterfeit in this context is a criminal offence. Arguing over license deals is a civil matter.

ILCA and WS are not statutory bodies who make laws applying to everyone, they are essentially
private organisations who make their own rules applying to their members. They are really not part of the picture if somebody wants to buy a Laser from LP.

There may be more issues with people selling on Lasers as International Lasers as time goes on. If you're buying a used boat you need to check the plaque. But when these boats are older like mine, will the plaques have worn and faded like mine?
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by Demelza

Stick to the subject. if you want to discus Kayaks do it somewhere else !!

You have no idea how threads on forums work do you ? Doesn’t Mr Rasty let you play with the interweb much ?  Wink

If you ready want publicly for LP Lasers, just buy an advertisement.  LOL

You are well named. For information after sailing lasers for years I sold my 20plus Laser as must have expensive improvements were, and still are, coming thick and fast and it was not worth keeping up for the average club sailor.  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

You are so funny , your posts are straight out on the LP spin book and are utter tosh , as anyone that has followed the Laser/ILCA story knows. 
Rasty should really pay more , at least he would get a better quality sock puppet.lol
The bottom line is , if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck . This definitely makes you a LP sock puppet .  LOL LOL



Edited by Grumpycat - 03 Feb 22 at 5:59pm
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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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Posts: 109 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.


if it is not built to  , and approved  as, meeting the Specifications of the class it is counterfeit 

signifant numbers of 'counterfeit'  products in a variety of sectors are built  on the same lines   as the licence holder  builds  their , they are QA fails , they are 'overruns' etc ...  the difference is LP no longer hold a legitimate contract  to build  the boat
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Demelza

......

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 






Tell me a class association which hasn't had a faction wanting to upgrade the rig at some point in its history?

It's a dilemma many classes have faced, either get overtaken by more modern classes or create a cost for existing boats to update.If a CA ia any sort of democratic collection of owners, there will likely be a range of opinion.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:31pm
For me the repeated refusal to categorically deny any LPE connection set the spider sense twitching. If one is a genuine contributor and asked the question then a straight forward denial is not difficult.
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