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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'.


Straight out of the Laser Performance spin book, and basically nonsense. To my mind either shill or useful idiot, which comes to the same thing.

Remember its a lesson of the internet that there is no position, no matter how daft, that you can't find someone who will apparently genuinely argue for it.


Edited by JimC - 03 Feb 22 at 6:09pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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I think he's gone
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by fab100

.....

Er, but is it? There's no external QA, no commitment to the build-manual that the official builders work to, no royalties paid (for what was it, ten years?). It's as genuine as a knock off "Gucci" handbag or "Rolex" watch bought in a Souk. So that would be a "no" then.

As far as I am concerned, someone who is granted a virtual monopoly on a popular, profitable product, but does not pay the monopoly grantor their (small per boat) dues for a decade is beneath contempt. And by dint of not paying the royalties, they cannot be 'genuine'.

Oh, and even before LP lost their build rights, my boat-park neighbour, who has bought at least 2 200+ sail number Lasers found that the quality was awful, with mast rake several inches different for instance. So not one-design by any stretch
 




Whole bunch of issues here.
The shape of the boat is out of any copyright. So anyone can build one now. It's like anyone can make spares for the Austin Maxi. The quality issues are partly a  matter of history, modern production is so much better than the 70s, we now expect identical rake etc, while slapping boats together 70s style, you got what you got. If you read the early books about Laser sailing, you may find hints about choosing a 'good' boat, because build tolerances and processes were different back then. These days it's much easier for the likes of Ovi to churn out very consistent product.

The fact that some LP built Lasers were sold as class legal boats with quality issues is not unique to LP. Other SMOD makers have sold boats not as good asother examples of the class. Heavy ones, leaky ones. No need to name names. The situation before LP stopped labelling their product as a  WS endored International Laser is a different situation to today and I'm not defending that.
But it's history. Today the 'laser' in the UK has forked into the ILCA and the LP Laser.


. The LP Laser is exactly what you say it is, just a plastic laser shaped boat outside of WS/ILCA  or other external QC. Because that build manual/QC process is what you don't get for £4k and you don't get a little plaque. What you do get is the Laser trademark. The four grand Laser suffers from the issue of many other SMODs, you're not buying to an agreed spec, like buying an RS boat, there's no minimum weight for it to be compared with, next year they might sell lighter boats or different shaped ones.Doesn't matter if you're buying a fleet for a beach operation or something.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 

Conveniently dodging the upped royalties issue.

"Not surprisingly" I beg to differ - in the circumstance you set-out, I'd have thought having inspectors in was absolutely the thing to do. Unless there was something to hide (crap QA, methods, other infractions?)




 
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Demelza View Drop Down
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:25pm
Final word; 
I don't have and would not now buy another either an LP or an ILCA. I'd recommend a RS Aero.  After years of trying they have finally got it right and the boat is obviously waiting in the wings to take over from the Laser/ILCA as the Olympic single-hander.  

Ooh and I'm also in RS's pocket for writing this. Bye.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 

Conveniently dodging the upped royalties issue.

"Not surprisingly" I beg to differ - in the circumstance you set-out, I'd have thought having inspectors in was absolutely the thing to do. Unless there was something to hide (crap QA, methods, other infractions?)




[/QUOTE]
Great book for Club Sailors here
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  

What NJ said
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:20pm
AFAIK there are/have been two separate paths of new rig development for the Laser, one sponsored by LPE (the Arc rig) and the other by ILCA (the C5, C6 & C8). 
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Demelza View Drop Down
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:08pm
I think you are missing out some of the history behind the debacle. The Australian builder was producing a boat that was judged to be 'faster'. Foul play was suspected and on investigation the boats were found to be stiffer because they were constructed with addition fibreglass mat and did not thus comply with the builders manual. LP complained to the ILCA that these boats should be ruled out of class. This would effected a few thousand boats so the ILCA did nothing apart from demand to inspect LP premise to check on their boats. Not surprisingly Rastagar got the hump and refused. ILCA 's response was to refuse to license LP boats. 
Imo a stupid thing to do before they had any alternative builder appointed for Europe.  

Also I believe it was not LP but the ILCA that approached an Australian company to trial new rigs. This was instigated, without any reference to the membership, by the yanks who took over the ILCA. Two of whom declared publicly that the days of white sails on the Laser must pass.   
 
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Demelza

Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 


you really  are not  doing anything to dismiss   the  assertion that you are a Shill for LP, attempting to astroturf about their  counterfeit product.  


To call it a 'counterfeit product' implies not understanding that it's the WS plaque and what irepresents which IS THE PRODUCT. It is where a big slice of the value is.

The plaque-less Laser is a perfectly genuine product, but it's just a mediocre boat designed down to a price a long time ago.

Er, but is it? There's no external QA, no commitment to the build-manual that the official builders work to, no royalties paid (for what was it, ten years?). It's as genuine as a knock off "Gucci" handbag or "Rolex" watch bought in a Souk. So that would be a "no" then.

As far as I am concerned, someone who is granted a virtual monopoly on a popular, profitable product, but does not pay the monopoly grantor their (small per boat) dues for a decade is beneath contempt. And by dint of not paying the royalties, they cannot be 'genuine'.

Oh, and even before LP lost their build rights, my boat-park neighbour, who has bought at least 2 200+ sail number Lasers found that the quality was awful, with mast rake several inches different for instance. So not one-design by any stretch
 


Great book for Club Sailors here
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