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iGRF View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Mar 11
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

. GRF invited him to his club a few years ago and the system was explained to him in great detail.

He did indeed and the said man promised there was going to be a significant announcement at the following years dinghy show about an upgrade that was going to address all the points made.

No such announcement was forthcoming

Further to the visit we at Hythe have submitted returns, indeed eventually some years later 'confidence' was forthcoming, the result? The Lasers should get slower and the Contenders faster, which effectively means everyone else could go screw themselves, it's the very lie the system is built on. It is not fair to all, it is fair only to the big numbers.

Without a gounding about which to pivot, the data just starts to feed off itself, I wonder if they even understand what it is they've built it's so out of control imv.

I wish they'd let someone like Peaky have a look, he's got the right sort of brain for this sort of thing.

Edited by iGRF - 21 Nov 20 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 12:38pm
I don’t know how Rupert found the link he posted on the previous page but it isn’t under RYA/Racing/PY which is where you might expect to find an explanation of how the scheme works.  There’s little point the RYA only posting explanations on here but not their own site.  As to the rest, it isn’t tin hat territory to ask for a little more transparency and a little less fidelity.  Just friendly constructive suggestions.  
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:52am
Sorry but all these points have been already answered many many times in many many threads on here and by the RYA themselves.Google is your friend. If not ask the man in charge of the system at the RYA to come and do a talk on at at your club once COVID is over . GRF invited him to his club a few years ago and the system was explained to him in great detail.

The problem is, as has already been mentioned, that the answers don’t fit the narrative put forward by the fin foil wearers . 
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 9:01am
Originally posted by A2Z

I would like to ask that the PYAG consider the following suggestions: 

1.       Put a document on the RYA website explaining how the numbers are calculated. 
2.       Reduce the resolution of the numbers – round numbers to the nearest 4 or so. 
3.       Adjust the way the relativity is used, so that only classes that have actually gotten slower in absolute sense (or were previously harshly handicapped) get a PY increase. Obviously there are not many classes that evolve to become slower. 
4.       Find ways to reduce the burden and onus on clubs to alter numbers. 
5.       Publish the historic PY numbers of classes over the years, so that the relative effect of changes can be better appreciated. 
6.       Have a different, and transparent, method for allocating (temporary) numbers to new classes – it should not be in the hands of the manufacturer/class to propose a number. 

At the end of the day, it is not about having a more accurate scheme. It is about having a fair and workable scheme that encourages boats to go racing. 



1.....The more transparency the better
2......maybe
3......makes sense. Once a trusted number with a high degree of confidence has been established why increase the number when the skill level declines? For all I know there may be a very good reason, this takes me back to item 1, more transparency
4.......It's obvious that most clubs are very reluctant to alter the published numbers. That part of the system is defo broken.
5.....again more transparency
6.....yes


One of the major problems for open sea clubs is that most returns are from small to medium ponds/lakes so the system works better for the later. The system is biased towards gusty, non tidal venues with no waves.......IMO this is the second biggest problem with the entire system, it makes a major difference to the results. I really can't overstate this. The slower the boat the bigger the problem gets in respect of tide only. 

Clearly the PY team need more data particularly from open sea clubs but although this would help it doesn't solve the issue entirely.

The biggest problem with the system: How to get more returns from clubs? how to get an even spread of data? Clubs obviously benefit hugely from a handicap system but how do you get them to participate fully?

This bit is speculation, beer talk and conspiracy: Do the RYA actually want more data? They say they do. I assume (I don't know because of lack of transparency) that a sudden increase in data would require extra work and extra cost? How committed are the RYA to improving the system?




EDIT:
 With regards to named individual members of the PY team explaining aspect of the system on social media, this forum in particular: As an attempt at transparency it was always going to be a disaster, it was always destined to failure and bad feeling. It predictably got personal and placed the members of the team in an impossible position.  



Edited by Sussex Lad - 21 Nov 20 at 9:56am
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:36am
Nice man is Chris G, still on the py committee, the man crunching the numbers at the Draycote dash still works hard DOING stuff at club level.
Cannot see him ever posting on here again. 
But at least if you go back into the old threads you can find Baz, Chris G and Jim C all explain the system . 


Edited by Grumpycat - 21 Nov 20 at 8:37am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:30am
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%20Instructions%20for%20Worksheet.pdf

Though everything has gone computerised since this document, the processes remain virtually the same.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Chris J hasn't visited since oct '19, marke posted in February. A search of their posts has led to some good reading (I even found a post by Graeme where he said "To me I'd rather have the idiosyncrasies of handicap racing than the body size/weight constrictions of fleet racing at least I can use my brain power to overcome my size limitations."!!!!

But finding the posts where they explain the details of the system the PY Committee use to process the returns is a bit more complex so if anybody comes across such a link would be welcome.


Correction, ChrisG was the other PYAG member and his most recent post was in March 2018 though he last visited in Oct '19.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 7:55pm
No, I don't find it counterintuitive! If the Laser yardstick didn't get slower, 100 others would need to change to allow the stats to work.

A club can change the Blaze handicap in that situation. But I agree, in reality, it is unlikely to. However, if we had the information from, say, 6 other small clubs who also had Blazes racing Lasers, then maybe we start to build a small picture inside the bigger one, and decisions could be made.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Rupert

A2Z, have you sent this to the RYA? I don't agree with all of it, but they are certainly things to be considered.

Personally 1, yes, I'd like to see that. 2, yes, I think it gives a false expectation of accuracy. 3, no. It is relative speeds we are looking at. 4 maybe. Not a burden, as such, but can cause friction, and usually insufficient data. 5, the class may have the most info, and maybe too much expectation is put on the system for boats with no data. Some patience from the owners of new classes might be an answer.
Don’t you find it a little confusing and counterintuitive that a class’ PY can increase when the underlying boat hasn’t got any slower? In fact, a PY can actually increase for a class that is quicker than it used to be as long as it rises less than other classes.  

An individual pond club with, say, one Blaze and two Supernovas amongst a gaggle of Lasers is not in a position to change the Blaze handicap just because it struggles to win.  Maybe she’s a crap sailor.  Maybe the Lasers are all excellent. Maybe the small courses don’t suit and maybe all other Blaze returns are from open water clubs. Who knows?  
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Key Messages
- The RYA only makes RECOMMENDATIONS to clubs
- In order to run an effective scheme the clubs MUST take control of their own racing
- The clubs should develop their own handicap list to tailor for their local factors
- If a handicap is deemed to be “wrong” it is for the club to analyse race data and make an
adjustment if required. (quote from RYA)


I think this is what AtoZ means. In reality, for several reasons, this is hard to do. If the RYA could facilitate a meeting of minds for clubs with similar water, it would give more data and better chance of club harmony.
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