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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:21am
At risk of being told I'm "part of the system", or whatever, I don't think the Portsmouth Yardstick is broken at all. Can it deliver fair racing across all types of water in all wind conditions? Of course it can't. Can it get pretty damn close to this over a series of races in varied conditions in one location. Yes.
If you decide to sail a Musto Skiff on a 10 acre lake, or a British Moth on the North Sea, will you get the same results as you would if you swapped the boats? No, of course not. But either the club could tweak the yardstick, or common sense on the part of the sailor could prevail.

That it's been running in a recognisable format for nigh on 70 years despite people whinging about bandits that other people sail and how harshly "their" boat is treated, suggests to me that it's a pretty fine system.

Edited by Rupert - 20 Nov 20 at 9:22am
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  

Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal.

As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. 

Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk  Wink

OK hands up I will admit to that troll - sorry! It is a theory that has been talked about over the years and I have genuinely heard it repeated a number of times, but I do not believe it. Was just feeling mischievous, aorry all, back in my box  Wink 
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 6:49am
Can anyone name a sport where a novice, Sunday warriors, and world champions all compete together at the same time in the same race using widely different equipment. PY system might not be perfect but what it achieves is pretty awesome. 

Each class will have its ideal conditions and there is not a lot that can be done about it. As people have said length is the key indicator of speed followed by sail area, and weight but there other variables that are more subtle. The Streaker for example has appalling dagger board (flat boards with a bit of shape front and back). 
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 2:40am
Originally posted by epicfail

In an ideal world there would be some form of handicap based on the ability of the boat and not the sailor, would this solve the problem? Probably not, no doubt some people would be happy others not. Are there enough important handicap events to make this an issue? The fact that I think the PY of my Europe on my lake might be a bit low isn't really an issue, after all it's likely to be down to my lack of ability  Smile
The Solo and Europe are very different but share the same PY, from where I sail this looks about right. The Europe and Lightning are not dissimilar but are some way apart. I suppose I was looking for some revelation that would explain this. I don't really care enough to change classes just to be closer to the front of the pond handicap. After all the Europe is a lovely boat to sail.


I think the Lightning PY was closer to the Europe/Radial/Byte/Solo ballpark before? Not sure what happened to change it so much, though as classes go through cycles of popularity I guess the average skill level of the fleet may change significantly and have an effect on returns.

Ultimately PY is just a bit of fun. The Europe is a great boat and sails well to its handicap in moderate conditions. In lighter (Solo) and heavier (radial) conditions going the right way and boat handling respectively count for a lot more in the final result so you can make up for any perceived PY disadvantage with practice! :)
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:31pm
Europe is a lovely boat, based on a sail in an older one I nearly bought and might've done so if rigs for the heavier end of the weight range were plentiful.

But, handicaps based exclusively on the performance of the boat can only be formula based and keelboat handicapping in the '80s demonstrated that that approach just introduces a different set of inaccuracies. Given enough returns the PY system is the most accurate available but any statistical sample with only a few thousand samples is compromised. In the current PN list only the Laser and the Solo have more than 10,000 returns, any reputable statistician is going to places his head in his hands when presented with such data...
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epicfail View Drop Down
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 10:00pm
In an ideal world there would be some form of handicap based on the ability of the boat and not the sailor, would this solve the problem? Probably not, no doubt some people would be happy others not. Are there enough important handicap events to make this an issue? The fact that I think the PY of my Europe on my lake might be a bit low isn't really an issue, after all it's likely to be down to my lack of ability  Smile

The Solo and Europe are very different but share the same PY, from where I sail this looks about right. The Europe and Lightning are not dissimilar but are some way apart. I suppose I was looking for some revelation that would explain this. I don't really care enough to change classes just to be closer to the front of the pond handicap. After all the Europe is a lovely boat to sail.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:48pm
Making a very simple mathematical formula based on returns from your own clubs very complicated. What do you think they are doing? They are not sitting round a cauldron cackling.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:47pm
Or you can sort the website by class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races

Sorry -  I've only been a full BSC member for 38 years and as a student member before that as long as I could get away with it... so obviously I was even planning this all before the Blaze even came into being - is that what you are implying ?    (btw - of course when I was in the committee system at BSC we  ALWAYS  put it returns ).  Looks like as soon as the current incumbents start doing it again I'll either have to switch classes or clubs then to prove you dodgy ‘fake news’ conspiracy theorists right !! )  Dream on ...



Edited by Cirrus - 19 Nov 20 at 9:50pm
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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change.

I agree, but its a circular argument. Theres no will because there's no perceived significant benefit. Status quo and all that... 


Edited by Chris_H - 19 Nov 20 at 9:20pm
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  

Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal.

As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. 

Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk  Wink


Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change.
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