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Pointless PY Pondering

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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:16pm
I believe the lowest 10% of results are discarded before the returns are processed so as to represent the boars performance in the hands of an average to good sailor. Historically the very best sailors were more likely to race in class events so didn't turn up in handicap results so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CarbonCopy3459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:57am
I wonder what would happen if the PY were based on the top 'sq. root of the number of entries' in each race (or top 3 if less than 9 entries). Yes, there would be less data to work with (itself an issue) but would it not skew the results more towards boat performance, as it might be assumed that the top finishers are nearer to being the 'ideal sailor' than the average.
Perhaps some boats would never get a result counted Mine certainly wouldn't!  Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:37am
Originally posted by epicfail

Yes I know its all based on race returns but are there obvious boat design issues that might account for the differences. Is it primarily down to weight and length?
 
The Streaker has less sail area than the Europe and Lightning but is longer. Does this partly explain it's quicker PY. It's also quicker than a Solo despite the Solo having more sail - but I guess the Solo is a bit of a lardy. Perhaps all Streaker racers really good?

The Lightning is longer than the Europe has the same sail area but the hull is 9kg heavier, Is that enough to explain the slower PY than the Europe? 

Or perhaps I'm a fool to ask?  Big smile
For boats like the Laser, Europe and Lightning which are type formed singlehanders the Fuller number works quite well as a PY estimator.

Fuller PY = 1800 - (144 x Length) - (37 x Sail Area) + (1.2 x Weight) 


Obviously though the PY is a crude average.  The Solo and Radial have similar PYs but the Solo is quicker below 8kts and the Radial quicker above 12kts. That’s because the Solo has a relatively big sail but a speed limited hull (short and rockered) whilst the Radial has a small sail and faster hull. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:14am
Originally posted by 423zero

How do you think your new boat should be treated?
PY committee have to have something to work on?
You must know by now who some of the committee are.


Nope, I haven't a clue, I do know Dougalldog did try for a serious journalistic approach but they f**ked him off.

The fact they don't rotate.. or maybe they do, I honestly don't know, but they should, whoever they are they aint doing it right, but since when did anything managed by a committee succeed...

My new boat? I'm past caring what they do, and I haven't had time to even bung it through my spreadsheet, which I can't find anyway it was that long ago I was messing with it, it will probably get the Icon treatment since I don't have the clout RS do, but it wont matter if the boat is fun to sail, like the Farr, that hasn't got a yardstick either. It's their probem not mine, it's they who are not representing the sport they are supposed to be governing.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Nov 20 at 12:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Rupert

Did the Aero escape


Really? You have to ask? You can't be that naive surely...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:22pm
Did the Aero escape, or just get enough returns quickly enough for the yardstick to be not too far out?

Yes, the system is driven by results. Yes, that can cause issues. No, the Laser hasn't got slower. It used to have a sh*t yardstick from when very few changes were made, though I know you don't think so.

The Europe has a harsh handicap for light winds inland, but I think makes up for it in a blow on the sea. The one I don't understand is the British Moth. Which club handicap races BMs and never has any wind on a Sunday? Otherwise, why is it so punitive?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:18pm
How do you think your new boat should be treated?
PY committee have to have something to work on?
You must know by now who some of the committee are.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 10:51pm
So, and I'm not denying the presence of tinfoil (it also wards of Covid19), what exactly do you dispute in that little, I thought quite gentle admonishment of the PYsystem.?

Is the group transparent? No.
Do they demolish new classes? Yes
Has the RS Aero escaped that demolition? Most defnitely.
Do we even know who they are? Some people do, some people don't.

40 years of nearly Marine Industry experience I'm afraid has taught me to be extremely cynical when it comes to the 'old boy' and 'not so old boy' networks that orbit the RYA.

So I'll stick with the Tinfoil for now..

Edited by iGRF - 18 Nov 20 at 10:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:52pm
Grf  I think your  tin foil hat must be on too tight. The py system works as well as any handicap system can. As so many people have tried to explain to you . 
You post so much interesting and/or funny stuff. 
Then you post this conspiracy theory b@@@@ks that makes you sound like a flat earth/anti vaccine type person . 
Please please please stay away from yardsticks and stick with the stuff you do so well .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:02pm
Sailing is an amazing sport - so many variables, the PY system has a hard job to do. I'm a bit rubbish and sail a 80's Europe with a tin mast, I suspect it's a bit slower than more recent examples with carbon rigs.

I always cross the line in front of a chap sailing an Aero 7 yet only rarely get ahead of a Lightning. I can be ahead of some Lasers but always get beaten by two others. I does not stop me having a great time. The skill of the helm is obviously a massive part of the deal - I suppose trying to understand some of these results is pointless. I have yet to sail against another Europe, something I will put right next year, then it might be time to give up!
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