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Is Racing Allowed?
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Racing Allowed?
    Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:35am
Originally posted by polc1410

 
This is what the law actually says

"no person may participate in a gathering which takes place in a public or private place -
(a) outdoors, and consists of more than six persons"

(there are bits that address if same family, same bubble etc. But for most situations this is the bit that matters.)

Gathering is defined as: here is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
(my bold)

There is nothing ambiguous here.  

Define; 'together', 'same place', 'activity' and 'with'. They are all fairly ambiguous terms (consider the law may have defined a duration and proximity).

Affiliation to the same club is a form of togetherness?
Same place may be the harbour or lake?
Activity might be sailing?
'With' is difficult to describe. 

I think it's disingenuous to make a case that by there being a race you are suddenly 'with' people in other boats. When the reality is you're already part of the same club, launching from the same ramp and using the same facilities when leisure sailing. 

The law doesn't state what level of organisation needs to be in place for a gathering to be a gathering. So for me those happy leisure sailing 'with' X number of boats together at a club should be happy racing 'with' X number of boats at the same club. 

To me it's clear. I am with my crew. I am in the same place as my crew (the boat). We have shared purpose that cannot be separated and are 'with' each other. We are spending extended time in each others company. I see there is a clear increase risk in transmission by being gathered with my crew and it seems logical this is a gathering. So we must either be of the same household
or stay 2m apart. 
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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:21am
My interpretation is - it was an organised event, for more than 6 people with a crass and insensitive moniker - and doing it in full view of an immediate neighbour who is not your best friend. . In just a few weeks time, had they had patience, this may well be ok when further restrictions are lifted. As it stands now, HISC are under the spotlight, and not in a positive way. 

You can argue all you like on how to interpret the rules to justify this event - this is the end result of doing just that...


Edited by Chris_H - 16 Jun 20 at 7:30am
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Paramedic

To add to the above, whats more frustrating is that there are so many other ways they could have done it. Start in flights, time trials, etc. etc.
But none of those alternatives make any difference in terms of being 'with' other people. And in practice they make no difference on proximity. They certainly make no difference to what is 'seen' by the public either. 

I think the race format is a red herring. Either by two boats being in a race they a 'with' one another, 'together' and 'undertaking an activity with each other' or they aren't. 
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 6:46am
Originally posted by A2Z

To be honest he, the fisherman, seems a complete plonker. I’m all for a return to racing but it has to be seen to be in a responsible and sensitive way and not looking for loopholes or “everyone’s at it” justification.  I know Ian Walker has said the RYA can’t give a one size fits all guide, but it does seem to me they could be a bit clearer on whether club racing is a gathering or not.  

Yes, agreed on all counts.

With RYA backing the club would at least have something to fall back on. As it stands they have no moral grounding at all other than their own interpretation of the rules.
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 6:40am
To add to the above, whats more frustrating is that there are so many other ways they could have done it. Start in flights, time trials, etc. etc.

But 50 odd boats in the Corona Cup??? Really???????

It's guaranteed to wind people up.
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 6:33am
Sorry, I think Hayling have been very, very shortsighted on this one.

We are two/three weeks away from what should be a significant easing of restrictions. 4th July.

Whatever the local politics - that HISC know full well about, this cannot be a surprise to them -  Hayling Island SC are now plastered all over the front pages of various forums in the sailing and fishing community and will have become extremely prominent on a social media group. David's experience at Salcombe (this might be detailed elsewhere)  tells us that there is a good chance that Chichester Harbour Authority will be having a discussion as to whether dinghy racing is going to be allowed. They will certainly be coming under pressure to have this discussion.

If they say no, who is to say that they will allow it to start on 4th July? And this will affect several clubs, not just HISC.

Now, again, I don't believe that there is ANY chance of transmission between boats and, yes, I think that racing should be allowed. But is isn't, and this could cause it to be specifically banned in one of the largest harbours in the uk - and you can't take for granted that they will lift any ban on 4th July. Well done HISC.


Edited by Paramedic - 16 Jun 20 at 6:43am
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polc1410 View Drop Down
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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote polc1410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 20 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by polc1410

 Nothing in that guidance says you must be a multi-million pound professional. 
Aha - I've just decided to read the law rather than the guidance.    You need to be an elite athlete (and yes the law does define that - and no I'm not sure being the Foxer National Champion counts!)

So we return to the is this a gathering of 6 people....

This is what the law actually says

"no person may participate in a gathering which takes place in a public or private place -
(a) outdoors, and consists of more than six persons"

(there are bits that address if same family, same bubble etc. But for most situations this is the bit that matters.)

Gathering is defined as: here is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
(my bold)

There is nothing ambiguous here.  We might wish there was so we can pretend racing is different, because we know the risk is low.  But we actually need the rules to change, either to specify a bigger gathering, or to add a specific exemption.  A specific exemption may seem far fetched, but, there is an exemption for this: "the person concerned is attending a drive-in cinema in a car or other vehicle, and the people in the vehicle are members of the same household..."  If we think we aren't gathering, explain to me why someone effectively being parked in a closed car next to me to watch a big TV screen would need an exemption...

So lets be clear - Hayling Island are wrong in their interpretation.  The Hamble, if they are running their Foxer Race in the conventional format are wrong.  Since its an unconventional boat - a modification to format would seem plausible. 
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Posts: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 20 at 10:34pm
........

Edited by zeon - 01 Oct 20 at 12:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 20 at 10:01pm
To be honest he, the fisherman, seems a complete plonker. I’m all for a return to racing but it has to be seen to be in a responsible and sensitive way and not looking for loopholes or “everyone’s at it” justification.  I know Ian Walker has said the RYA can’t give a one size fits all guide, but it does seem to me they could be a bit clearer on whether club racing is a gathering or not.  
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 20 at 9:28pm
Dear me, everything seems to have kicked off, fortunately BLM issues should keep press busy, hate most fish murderers anyway, t***ers casting 150yards and then moaning when you snag their lines.
Robert
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