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rich96 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.


Very impressive !

Hats off to him
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:15am
After returning to dinghies back in 2008 with the Spice, when I decided to buy a singlehander I had some pretty firm ideas as to what I wanted. Amongst them was no kite and no trapeze, 9 years of sailing the Spice had shown me that my skill level was not up to being competitive in a trapeze/assymetric rigged boat and my available time on the water was unlikely to change in the future. Likewise a kite on a singlehander upped the difficulty stakes beyond what I considered I could achieve and be competitive. All else being equal a hiking boat is always going to be more forgiving than a trap boat and a kite is always going to make a boat more difficult to sail, but the handicap is based on both being used so to sail to that handicap you have to be competent at using both kite and wire. 
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:13am

However - is there really demand for ANY new trapeze single hander class (either).  The Musto skiff  is now the de facto 'standard' modern take and the Contender remains a powerful focus for the 'traditionalist'.  As a segment it is still however very very limited in the current world.  Those who buy new boats are also disproportionately 'mature' and many clubs are not ideal for trapeze boats either.... Possible real world 'new' buyers are therefore far less likely to buy an alternative trapeze boat.   It is a particularly interesting segment to address, of course, but perhaps only from a technical point of view for the foreseeable ....

 

Might not stop me from putting a trapeze on Hybrid either at some point - or trying out other possibilities already considered but not yet involved.  That in a nutshell, is the beauty of an ‘off piste’ development like Hybrid.  You learn new stuff all the time - and then revert.



Edited by Cirrus - 19 May 20 at 10:20am
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:53am
It is easy to take the **** out of iGRF but in this case I think we has got it about right, The market for the lightweight 'modern' singlehander is super crowded with some very good boats indeed; the Aero, D-Zero and H2 between them surely cover most of the bases - for someone wanting this sort of boat any one of these will tick the boxes plus they have the advantage of that all important 'traction'.  But the modern, lightweight trapeze singlehander....now that would be radical and worthy of serious interest. As a 40 year plus Contender sailor, this may seem strange but I never pass up on an opportunity to sing the praises of the Rs600 BUT - at the same time, I would describe it as 'flawed genius'..... so a boat that sits at that sort of positioning could  find a gap in the market...forget the addition of extra sails - a simple, lightweight fun trapeze boat, I'm just amazed that someone hasn't looked at the 600/Contender scene, seen the failings in both and done a modern take that slots in to a gap that exists, rather than trying to jam another boat into a gap that simply isn''t there!

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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:37am
You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class .....

That is not a decision that has been, or needs to be, made any time soon !  I sold my interest in building / marketing boats a couple of years back (very thankfully given the current market).   Hybrid is currently just an indulgent bit of pure interest on my part at this time - because I wanted to try some ideas out of interest and do not need an immediate commercial justification to do so.  It is something of a hobby alongside still racing in two other classes !  However you never say 'No' completely and if any builders that may remain in the 'new normal' were interested in something like Hybrid you'd surely not turn them away either ?  But build or launch a new class by myself now ?    No of course not !

 

Though Hybrid might make a cracking entrant in something like GRFi's supposed all comers formula class he's proposed occasionally  .... Smile

Edited by Cirrus - 19 May 20 at 9:41am
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:00am
A decent sized fleet of one design racers is always going to be preferable to me, even if this is not in the perfect boat.  However if that were not available and I had to go handicap racing, I would want to do this in the most fun boat that is appropriate for the water I sail, in which case the number of boats of a class built or number racing would be irrelevant, a beamy sit out singlehander with a challenging rig size would probably be my stead of choice ... I have some scribbles for a "one off" single-hander with smallish wings, self-tacking jib that can be goosewinged and a well for my feet 
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:31am
Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 8:01am
I cannot speak for the majority iGRF but I think the reason that the focus is on hiking rather than trapezing is that the majority would rather hike. On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times! I recall a Farr visiting us for an open and having what looked like a horrid time, in the end he gave up and just hiked because he was swimming three or four times per beat and this is a small pond!! Most people just prefer it, I know you are going to think I am weird but I actually choose the H2 in part because it was such a nice boat to hike and I enjoy doing it and enjoy training specifically to be able to hike harder and longer.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 7:22am
I understand where iGRF is coming from here. There are an ever decreasing number of sailors out there to sell to. There are many existing classes that are attracting good fleets. There are new boats already vying for the middle ground (between the slower traditional classes and the newer performance ones) and to add another one to the mix is going to be difficult. Especially with the price that new boats are, to commit to a new one over one that is already gaining traction is going to be difficult. 

Now I'm not saying that the hybrid is not a good looking prospect, I really like the look (well apart from the length of unsupported toestraps) and I'd love to sail one. But then I'd like to sail a H2 as well and if I had to commit to one, I'm afraid that it already has some traction so it would be the latter.

You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class and Mike has tried. I wish him luck with this one I really do. Perhaps this is why companies like Ovington have taken traditional classes and run with updating them rather than launching newer designs (apart from the VX range). There is less risk as there is already a customer base. As well as we might wish otherwise (well iGRF anyway) people are cautious on the whole and they will stick with something that already does the job adequately because it already has a fleet.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 20 at 10:47pm
..... Whereas of course we'd be especially worried by now if GRFi actually liked it ! (Translation: We've watched with continued amusement all the classes he's associated himself with in the last decade.  Yes - an almost solid record of that 'Reverse Midas' gift does come to mind) LOL




Edited by Cirrus - 18 May 20 at 11:14pm
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