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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Club Edition.
    Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by deadrock

It is not just UKLA/ILCA events where you have to be class-legal; it's any race run under WS Rules, which means any race at your local club, provided that it organises races under the WS Rules. A Race Committee cannot amend the class rules without the CA's permission, or pretend they don't apply. Anyone turning up to race with a Club Laser runs the risk of being protested by other competitors.

That's not really true.
So long as you enter a PY race honestly, it's up to the RC to allocate you a PY.
If the NOR only invites Lasers (or other dinghies of recognised classes or whatever)  to race that might be different.

The class rules of a handicap race are the rules of the handicap scheme.
Locally, we can run a race for 'Lasers' and allow ILCA dinghies to race against Lasers with replica sails. We do that, because we actually value having people come out and race.

Plenty of yachts racing outside their OD class rules under IRC, it's the same rulebook.
Plenty of boats racing that don't have functioning class associations or class rules.

The final irony would be if clubs started sending in PY returns for 'club lasers' separately and they got a slower PY.

Obviously ILCA-endorsed races are for ILCA-endorsed boats sailed by ILCA members.
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

That's a definite possibility but LPE are entitled to build and sell the boats and ILCA are entitled to refuse them entry to their events. It's a mess but, in reality, I don't think that will be a problem, there's been so much hoo-ha most people buying a Laser to race at events will be aware of what has been going on.

 
So much traffic on here this afternoon I think the main item on the news will be slump in UK productivity.

Interesting that you could buy a LPE, sail it club racing on a Sunday and then not be allowed to sail it at an open event at your own club. 

It seams preposterous that it has come to this, fair play on ILCA ensuring boats are in specification but surely answer is that LPE come back in the fold.

All new boats get an introductorydiscount, and perhaps LPE has stock, but I suspect if the club laser gets traction it will only be 1K cheaper than a legitimate boat in a year. The AD duck add is also light on details, spec of ropes, kicker etc. 
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deadrock View Drop Down
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 5:03pm
It is not just UKLA/ILCA events where you have to be class-legal; it's any race run under WS Rules, which means any race at your local club, provided that it organises races under the WS Rules. A Race Committee cannot amend the class rules without the CA's permission, or pretend they don't apply. Anyone turning up to race with a Club Laser runs the risk of being protested by other competitors.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:39pm
Yup, that could be a problem, I'd those kids are almost certainly a product of an RYA centre so it's part of the centre's/RYA's remit to ensure parents know what not to buy if they, the trainers, are encouraging the kids to start racing the circuit. 

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 08 Nov 19 at 4:43pm
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 4:36pm
The people I would most worry about are kids going into the Laser 4.7 and unwittingly buying one secondhand.

When my lad was in a 4.7 there were a number of instances of kids with non sailing parents getting pinged for replica kit, blissfully unaware it was a problem up until race day. It's bad enough having to stump up for a new bottom section!
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 2:28pm
That's a definite possibility but LPE are entitled to build and sell the boats and ILCA are entitled to refuse them entry to their events. It's a mess but, in reality, I don't think that will be a problem, there's been so much hoo-ha most people buying a Laser to race at events will be aware of what has been going on.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

From a recent 'Sail World' article :-

"The UK Laser Association notes that the Laser Club is a training boat and may not be eligible to race in events sanctioned by UKLA, however it may be a good option for sailing schools and resorts within LP's territory."

my italics

Right up to the point when those ex centre boats make their way into the wider market and are sold as class legal boats...up to the point where someone gets binned for having one at a UKLA event and then leaves the sport for good.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

But the sailmaker certifies his own work (as does the builder, apart from an infrequent inspection by the LLCA). A 'Class Legal sail' with a button is £130 more than an identical 'Class Compliant' sail without. I wonder how much of that goes to ILCA?

Apparently the spars vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer too.

Its about £25 a sail for the button I also doubt there is any difference. The QA on genuine Laser sails always has been questionable. I remember checking a batch that was bought by our club members some years ago. The difference was massive between sails.

Does make you question how the 'replica' manufacturers can produce a better product with more consistent quality though eh.... (the last batch of replicas I checked were pretty much identical when laid out).

Spars it depends on how close the extrustion die is to being replaced. A mast from a new die will have thinner walls than a mast from a die that is needing replacement. 
Paul
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:30pm
Jimc, finding it difficult to see SA in anyway shape or form being in comparison with Y&Y, majority of it is schoolboy boring rubbish.
A couple of times I have thought about asking people not to refer to it on here, I personally know a couple of kids and youths who read Y&Y, wouldn't like them to access SA.
Robert
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 19 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by zeon



Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

LPE, PSA, PSJ etc have no interest in the health of the sport beyond where it might impact on profits.
Small volume manufacturers like Hartleys and RS are run by enthusiasts who actually sail the boats and care about dinghy sailing. This is clearly not the case with Laser.

I think you are very wrong to group PSA and PSA with LPE. They have very different company ethics.
I do agree about your point about RS , less so about Harleys. They have ridden rough shod over class associations in the past. 



Perhaps my feeling about the Hartleys is tempered because they are willing to discuss and explain their policies at the highest levels face to face. And I speak with experience of their " riding" in another class.
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