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Lee-Bow..... Windsurfers...etc (Dons tin hat)

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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lee-Bow..... Windsurfers...etc (Dons tin hat)
    Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:46pm
Oh and here with a real ferry 




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Sep 19 at 1:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

the vector diagrams/conveyer belt explanations don't stack up in the real world. Nobody on here is going to deny the existence of gusts and shifts so why would we believe that current is the same in speed and direction across the course (obviously we know it is not)? If it was then the absence of LBE would be explained. But the OP did observe something happening and it's interesting (to me at least) to discuss what caused it, maybe if he hadn't used the expression in the thread title then it wouldn't have got so heated.
Sam, I linked to the thread with the vectors. really, take time to read that. The vectors i showed illustrated a situation where tide did change across a course. It showed what the tidal lift would be and what the gain would be. 

No one is saying the tide doesn't change across the course. If that's what you think the argument against lee bow pinching above the current is, then you have woefully misunderstood the premise. 

The conveyor belt is used to explain in very simple terms how there is no induced flow over the foils for a boat that is within the flow. In really life there can be belts twisting and turning and going in different directions and speed right next to one another. That is clear from my vector diagram. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:33pm
I'm not supporting the existence of a tidal lee bow effect but the vector diagrams/conveyer belt explanations don't stack up in the real world. Nobody on here is going to deny the existence of gusts and shifts so why would we believe that current is the same in speed and direction across the course (obviously we know it is not)? If it was then the absence of LBE would be explained. But the OP did observe something happening and it's interesting (to me at least) to discuss what caused it, maybe if he hadn't used the expression in the thread title then it wouldn't have got so heated.

I suspect (as I have said up-thread) the effect either had nothing to do with tide or was something akin to the 'ferry glide' kayakers use to cross a stream. Without being there it's only guesswork but something happened.

FWIW I sail both inland and on the sea in about equal measure and both dinghies and windsurfers.

edit :- Sorry mozzy that has nothing to do with ferry gliding, the second, red boat shows a neat example of a ferry glide. 

 




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Sep 19 at 1:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by GarethT


Did you have a view on the resultant force from rig ever being analogous to the 'ferry rope'?

It is not even wrong.

It makes me cringe. Just like H2 sat on the pontoon with his dagger-board between his legs. 

I did see a bear grylls type programme once where they used it to get heavy equipment across a fast flowing river. 

I've never heard of this as ferry gliding. But if there are ferries which work like that, then cool. 

Here's some people doing it. It's irrelevant. 




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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:16pm
Please please please, for the love of god, let this topic die  Big smile Big smile Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:08pm
Yes. But the force they apply is just a force, with a direction and a magnitude. Just as the force from the rig has a direction and a magnitude.

I'm just asking if the direction and magnitude of these forces are similar, would the effect on the foil also be similar (accepting that the circumstances in which the forces are similar could be very rare)?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:06pm
This topic has been debated to death many times

Let it go peacefully

IME most people who believe it sail inland and find tides a little confusing





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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:04pm
THE ROPE OR ACHOR ARE FIXED to the ground

Of course there will then be a resultant force created by the water movement

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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 1:00pm
Couldn't be further from the truth. I have a lot of time for GRF, despite his trolling tendencies, and life is too short to goad anyone.

Did you have a view on the resultant force from rig ever being analogous to the 'ferry rope'?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 12:21pm
Gareth has been here some time and it's not the first time he's started a thread goading GRF with an appeal to his self importance by referencing windsurfing. Gareth must be sh*t posting. Although, he has snuck a cheeky 'dick' past the forum filter, so that's an achievement. 

16 pages and has anyone actually learnt anything that could make them a better sailor? I fear all that's happened here is that GRF has another unrelated and misguiding term to throw about in these threads. 

Provoking a bit of debate and playing devils advocate can be good. But this thread is so polluted with dumb statements I doubt any passer by could find it of any use. If there are lurkers here who have picked anything up I would love to hear from you!

I wouldn't call anyone a 'dick' who doesn't understand why the 'pinch up above the tide to change flow' lee bow is ridiculous. But, they are either novice, or dim. Neither makes them a bad person, however. 

But the trouble is, the whole discussion gets bogged down in this dunning-kruger effect where those with little knowledge are over confident in their understanding. But what's worse, they fear learning more, because the more they learn the less it seems they know and the stupider they feel. If starting to learn about something makes you feel dumb then you need quite a lot of perseverance to get through that. Eventually, a lot of people just don't bother. Effectively, some people are just more happy being confident in their misconceptions and assigning the unknown to myths and magic. You can't change these peoples minds. 

Tidal wind shift:
Lumped in with all this is how the tide changes the true wind (over water). Increasing, decreasing, backing and veering as the vectors change. It's not rocket science, but requires some thought. But it's amazing how few even very good sailors have fully thought through its ramifications. But the reason why is obvious. Current has a vector which is normally orders of magnitude lower than the ground wind, so the shifts produced at most championship venues are quite small. Secondly, you don't have to understand what is producing the shifts to feel them on the water and sail to them just as someone who understood why they were occurring would.

As it happens, I drew all the vectors in this thread. Read it. Obviously, despite asserting they were false, no one ever sat down and did the working to show why, nor did they present anything to support the 'pinch up over tidal flow'. Odd that. 


Edited by mozzy - 26 Sep 19 at 12:21pm
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