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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Start of race
    Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:30pm
Possibly too aggressive, but it's certainly happened to me and I suspect I have done it, too, certainly have when no committee boat is there. The leeward boat didn't even go above close-hauled as far as I could see.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 



OP scenario was that B changes course to windward (luffs) A into the committee vessel.

I agree that this doesn't look like a rule 15 situation, but it certainly is a rule 16.

If a does her best to keep clear of B, but is unable to do so [without touching the committee vessel], then she is being denied room to keep clear, and sailing within the room to which she is entitled and exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21).  That would be A's protest.

B could certainly protest if she thought that A could have kept clear.

Yes agree rule 16 applies, but if there is 3/4 of a boat length between them, then even if B headed up to head to wind i'd still think that would give A room to keep clear.

A doesn't have mark room as there isn't any, so if they are luffed in to the CB by B, or don't keep clear of B because they are avoiding the CB then surely A is at fault?

Isn't this why you always approach the CB on lay, so you can't be squeezed out.  And also why it is dangerous to sit to port of the CB in a left to right current as boats to leeward will drift up on you? 

I'm thinking of this where boat are racked up for a start almost stationary. Maybe the OP means the two boats are reaching toward the CB with a gap the leeward boat closes at the last second? I think that goes back to rule 16 and will depend on how late the luff was. If I was B I'd be telling A they had no room rights and sailing a course that left no room.

What do you think about the first couple of seconds of this video?
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Henmch View Drop Down
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Posts: 18 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Henmch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:52pm
Thank you for your responses to my original question which confirm my understanding.

If it was possible for the Windward boat A to keep clear of B by accelerating and crossing the line early even if there was for example a flag U flying could the leeward boat argue that this was boat A’s correct action to take to respond to leeward boat B’s luff even though boat A would be disqualified in the process?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by Brass


All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isn’t a sufficient way to summarise that definition?

Originally posted by JimC

Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.

Also, the focus of the definition of Room is on space not on time.

While I wasn't much involved in rules in 1995, I think that removal of references to 'opportunity' was intended to remove any idea that hailing was a required component of an entitlement to room.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 

OP scenario was that B changes course to windward (luffs) A into the committee vessel.

I agree that this doesn't look like a rule 15 situation, but it certainly is a rule 16.

If a does her best to keep clear of B, but is unable to do so [without touching the committee vessel], then she is being denied room to keep clear, and sailing within the room to which she is entitled and exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21).  That would be A's protest.

B could certainly protest if she thought that A could have kept clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 10:29am
Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:30am
Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.
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ClubRacer View Drop Down
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Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
Key words as always are Time and Opportunity


NO THEY ARE NOT.
These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.
All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isn’t a sufficient way to summarise that definition?
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GML View Drop Down
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 8:43am
To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:29am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
Key words as always are Time and Opportunity

NO THEY ARE NOT.

These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.

All the words you need are in the definition of Room:

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
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