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2019 RYA PYs

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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Rupert

Not seen the 800 for 800 campaign. Didn't realise we could lobby for a great sounding yardstick! RS 100 kinda stuffed, isn't it?

Look on the bright side.... D-Zero...enough said! :-D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Back in the day of paper returns, numbers rarely changed.

That gets exaggerated. A quick check on my spreadsheet suggests, if I got my formula right* about 12 numbers changed per year between 1990 and 1995, before the 4 figure numbers and 21 a year between 1997 and 2008.


*Big if, I admit.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 1:51pm
There isn't any doubt that a significant number of club sailors would like to see improvements to the system and with that in mind it would be interesting to see how much the RYA are spending in actual cash in order to develop the system further.

It would also be interesting to see how much they are spending in order to run it as it is.

Knowing what actual cash goes into it would give a fairly accurate indicator to how seriously the RYA take handicap racing.............I have my suspicions that those who hold the purse strings think it's a bit of a joke, a token gesture to quiet the mob. Happy to be proved wrong though.

Edited by Sussex Lad - 11 Mar 19 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by iGRF

It would be more accurate if they fixed the laser and pivoted around it, all this senseless annual drifting about I swear they do it a) To justify their continued existence and b) To piss everyone off.

They should have been replaced by robots ages ago.

The problem with the Laser as a “base” boat is that it or is pretty hard to touch in marginal planing conditions, particularly on a tight reach, so if the course setter obliges in these conditions the Laser will significantly out perform its PY.

I subscribe to the view that the PY system is probably as good as it can be, particularly when it is used across a series, where the peaks and troughs are evened out.  You just need to understand it’s shortcomings ... we sail in an estuary (a ria to be precise) and tidal gates can create huge gaps, particularly when a fast boat can get around a tidal gate where a well sailed slow boat might never make it ... you just have to accept this.

I can see in coming years that technological solutions might improve the fairness of results, but this could only work if race teams are capable of adopting them, however I think the current system is about as complex as many are prepared to work to.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by iGRF

It would be more accurate if they fixed the laser and pivoted around it, all this senseless annual drifting about I swear they do it a) To justify their continued existence and b) To piss everyone off.

They should have been replaced by robots ages ago.

The problem with the Laser as a “base” boat is that it or is pretty hard to touch in marginal planing conditions, particularly on a tight reach, so if the course setter obliges in these conditions the Laser will significantly out perform its PY.

I subscribe to the view that the PY system is probably as good as it can be, particularly when it is used across a series, where the peaks and troughs are evened out.  You just need to understand it’s shortcomings ... we sail in an estuary (a ria to be precise) and tidal gates can create huge gaps, particularly when a fast boat can get around a tidal gate where a well sailed slow boat might never make it ... you just have to accept this.

I can see in coming years that technological solutions might improve the fairness of results, but this could only work if race teams are capable of adopting them, however I think the current system is about as complex as many are prepared to work to.

Any boat can outperform its PY in a given set of conditions. Solos/British Moths in very light airs, D-Zero in marginal planing for most other boats and when it is honking (when most others fall in). I never really found the Laser had a sweet spot conditions wise, it seems to perform as an average in all conditions, never really excelling.

That is part of the issue as to why the PY system is at best a compromise. Every dog will have its day and boats perform differently at different venues (which is why you tend to get certain types of boat dominating at some clubs).

This is precisely why the RYA encourage clubs to play with the numbers. Where I sail it is a small piece of water. Something like a D-Zero is very well suited in most conditions. Whereas something like a Blaze (very slow to tack) is not as suited as you lose more tacking on a shift than you would by ignoring it. Other faster tacking boats can take advantage. Same with a spinnaker boat, the legs are not usually long enough for the ground lost on the hoist and drop to be made back up. So it becomes self limiting. We have reasonable Laser and Solo fleets along with the usual menagerie all around that sort of speed. The Phantom has taken a big hit given the nosedive its PY has taken over the last 5 years or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

There isn't any doubt that a significant number of club sailors would like to see improvements to the system [...]

I think it is impossible to have a perfect system, for reasons mentioned by others already, and thus everyone will always complain about it.

Ideally you will have a different PY for each boat based on wind strength at various times and locations during the race, the course, the venue, the age of the boat, the size of waves, the shiftiness of the wind, and a whole lot of other factors. This is of course not feasible.

So why do people even pretend that we can ever get this unicorn of a perfect system that suddenly solves all problems with handicap racing? Of course I also get annoyed that some boat class seems to be too fast for its handicap, but so what? I just grin and bear it, and try to beat them anyway. And if I don't manage it, I have a good excuse :)

And throwing money at the problem is, IMHO, a complete waste of time and effort. The PY system is an approximation, and will never be anything else.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Ain’t that the truth. Arguably though, that’s the point. No class of boat in reality gets slower, yet PYs go up. That is counter intuitive. In fact they are going up either because a. they were wrongly assessed in the first place or b. Other boats have got faster but this is reflected in raising other boats PY rather than reducing the quicker boat’s PY.

Surely, not that simple. 

The PY system is not necessarily/solely about any class of boat getting quicker (or slower) per se, it's a compound of that (thru better set-ups and systems, specification changes, whatever) AND how well in aggregate those boats were sailed in handicap races where returns were filed AND how conditions and courses in those races suited those boats (another thread perhaps, are there 'windy' years and 'light-airs' years or does it truly average out?)

A bandit boat is often that because it has historically been sailed by the less experienced (in handicap races where returns were filed). Then the hot-shots pile in and, well, we all know the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Eisvogel

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

There isn't any doubt that a significant number of club sailors would like to see improvements to the system [...]


Your arguments are fairly predictable, seen them before a thousand times and they are no less convincing now.
I think it is impossible to have a perfect system,
Yep
 for reasons mentioned by others already, and thus everyone will always complain about it.
No doubt.

Ideally you will have a different PY for each boat based on wind strength at various times and locations during the race, the course, the venue, the age of the boat, the size of waves, the shiftiness of the wind, and a whole lot of other factors. This is of course not feasible.
Obviously not. This is why the PY system should only be used on a series of races where you will get a variety of conditions, thus everyone hopefully gets a bite of the cherry. One seriously handicapping factor that remains constant throughout a series though is tide. The effect of tide can be calculated with the data that the RYA already has, just needs more number crunching.

So why do people even pretend that we can ever get this unicorn of a perfect system that suddenly solves all problems with handicap racing?
Don't think I've ever seen anyone propose a unicorn effect. I'm certainly not.

 Of course I also get annoyed that some boat class seems to be too fast for its handicap, but so what? I just grin and bear it, and try to beat them anyway. And if I don't manage it, I have a good excuse :)
Good for you. 

And throwing money at the problem is, IMHO, a complete waste of time and effort. The PY system is an approximation, and will never be anything else.
I wasn't suggesting throwing money at it..........Nothing can be perfected in this world does that mean we should give up on it all. Why are you so opposed to improving a flawed system? It defies all logic. Are you sailing a bandit? Wink

.......and your argument does not address my statement "I would be interested to see how much cash the RYA commits to developing the PY system"


Edited by Sussex Lad - 11 Mar 19 at 5:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Back in the day of paper returns, numbers rarely changed. What we have seen with the Laser, at least with the big changes early on, is the boat being given a handicap which actually reflects how fast it is. The clubs I was at, the nettings I did, it was very rare for even the best sailed Lasers to win events. Now, I gather that it is as possible in a Laser as in any other boat.

So, we could have fixed the Laser at 1078. When returns proved that to be unkind, every other boat handicap, whether records showed it to be fair against non-lasers, would have had to be adjusted.

Or just start again, I suppose, call the Laser 1000 (or 100, or 10000, I suppose) and fix it. But maybe there was a reason to move away from this in the first place?

I'm not sure how numbers of returns affects this. It simply makes the changes to the Laser more accurate, so all the more reason to move it. It doesn't affect the fact that moving 99 other handicaps to allow for one static number is going to cause more headaches at club level.

Graphs are lovely, but we are dealing with people.


Agreed, but, it's only a one time calculation right now a ten precent reduction for everyone, then fix the Laser and we all pivot about it, there's a strong case for a slow down with Moths speeds in the 500's. I did try it once to see wether I could persuade our lot, but hell I couldn't persuade them to have a brand new club and better parking and launching facilities, the chances of messing with the laserati internally would be zero.

Edited by iGRF - 11 Mar 19 at 5:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 5:57pm
Sussex Lad, you are assuming that a "better" system will be less flawed. Given the biggest variable in the system is the nut on the tiller, I don't agree that cutting the base figures differently, or throwing technology onto the water, is making anything more accurate. It is simply making the inaccuracies more hi-tech.
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