Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
2019 RYA PYs |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12345 8> |
Author | ||
fab100 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 11 Mar 19 at 5:19pm |
|
Surely, not that simple. The PY system is not necessarily/solely about any class of boat getting quicker (or slower) per se, it's a compound of that (thru better set-ups and systems, specification changes, whatever) AND how well in aggregate those boats were sailed in handicap races where returns were filed AND how conditions and courses in those races suited those boats (another thread perhaps, are there 'windy' years and 'light-airs' years or does it truly average out?) A bandit boat is often that because it has historically been sailed by the less experienced (in handicap races where returns were filed). Then the hot-shots pile in and, well, we all know the rest.
|
||
![]() |
||
Eisvogel ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Dec 16 Location: Birmingham Online Status: Offline Posts: 135 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
I think it is impossible to have a perfect system, for reasons mentioned by others already, and thus everyone will always complain about it. Ideally you will have a different PY for each boat based on wind strength at various times and locations during the race, the course, the venue, the age of the boat, the size of waves, the shiftiness of the wind, and a whole lot of other factors. This is of course not feasible. So why do people even pretend that we can ever get this unicorn of a perfect system that suddenly solves all problems with handicap racing? Of course I also get annoyed that some boat class seems to be too fast for its handicap, but so what? I just grin and bear it, and try to beat them anyway. And if I don't manage it, I have a good excuse :) And throwing money at the problem is, IMHO, a complete waste of time and effort. The PY system is an approximation, and will never be anything else.
|
||
Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986
|
||
![]() |
||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Any boat can outperform its PY in a given set of conditions. Solos/British Moths in very light airs, D-Zero in marginal planing for most other boats and when it is honking (when most others fall in). I never really found the Laser had a sweet spot conditions wise, it seems to perform as an average in all conditions, never really excelling.
That is part of the issue as to why the PY system is at best a compromise. Every dog will have its day and boats perform differently at different venues (which is why you tend to get certain types of boat dominating at some clubs). This is precisely why the RYA encourage clubs to play with the numbers. Where I sail it is a small piece of water. Something like a D-Zero is very well suited in most conditions. Whereas something like a Blaze (very slow to tack) is not as suited as you lose more tacking on a shift than you would by ignoring it. Other faster tacking boats can take advantage. Same with a spinnaker boat, the legs are not usually long enough for the ground lost on the hoist and drop to be made back up. So it becomes self limiting. We have reasonable Laser and Solo fleets along with the usual menagerie all around that sort of speed. The Phantom has taken a big hit given the nosedive its PY has taken over the last 5 years or so. |
||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||
![]() |
||
davidyacht ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
The problem with the Laser as a “base” boat is that it or is pretty hard to touch in marginal planing conditions, particularly on a tight reach, so if the course setter obliges in these conditions the Laser will significantly out perform its PY. I subscribe to the view that the PY system is probably as good as it can be, particularly when it is used across a series, where the peaks and troughs are evened out. You just need to understand it’s shortcomings ... we sail in an estuary (a ria to be precise) and tidal gates can create huge gaps, particularly when a fast boat can get around a tidal gate where a well sailed slow boat might never make it ... you just have to accept this. I can see in coming years that technological solutions might improve the fairness of results, but this could only work if race teams are capable of adopting them, however I think the current system is about as complex as many are prepared to work to.
|
||
Happily living in the past
|
||
![]() |
||
Sussex Lad ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jun 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 360 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
There isn't any doubt that a significant number of club sailors would like to see improvements to the system and with that in mind it would be interesting to see how much the RYA are spending in actual cash in order to develop the system further.
It would also be interesting to see how much they are spending in order to run it as it is. Knowing what actual cash goes into it would give a fairly accurate indicator to how seriously the RYA take handicap racing.............I have my suspicions that those who hold the purse strings think it's a bit of a joke, a token gesture to quiet the mob. Happy to be proved wrong though. Edited by Sussex Lad - 11 Mar 19 at 1:53pm |
||
![]() |
||
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
That gets exaggerated. A quick check on my spreadsheet suggests, if I got my formula right* about 12 numbers changed per year between 1990 and 1995, before the 4 figure numbers and 21 a year between 1997 and 2008. *Big if, I admit. |
||
![]() |
||
jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Look on the bright side.... D-Zero...enough said! :-D
|
||
Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
||
![]() |
||
Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Not seen the 800 for 800 campaign. Didn't realise we could lobby for a great sounding yardstick! RS 100 kinda stuffed, isn't it?
|
||
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
||
![]() |
||
Sam.Spoons ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
So you'd be in favour of a 2000 for the 2000 campaign then?
![]() Edited by Sam.Spoons - 11 Mar 19 at 11:37am |
||
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
||
![]() |
||
Guests ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Ain’t that the truth. Arguably though, that’s the point. No class of boat in reality gets slower, yet PYs go up. That is counter intuitive. In fact they are going up either because a. they were wrongly assessed in the first place or b. Other boats have got faster but this is reflected in raising other boats PY rather than reducing the quicker boat’s PY.
Not much to get fussed by this year, but I support Mozzy’s 800 for 800 campaign, especially as I’ve done a bit of 2000 sailing this winter! |
||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12345 8> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |