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| Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Class proliferation... |
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JimC 
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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 Topic: Class proliferation...Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 11:03am |
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I fear you make my point. |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 11:02am |
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Got to disagree with you there. My experience of rule changes in development classes (and I still have the mental scars) is that they are very often driven by a faction within the class. Changes pushed from outside (other than class builders) are very unusual IME. I can think of the spinnaker on the Tornado and the centremain on the Topper. While you do get people coming up to you at the Sailboat show and saying 'I'd definitely join your class if you did this' IME they are usually best ignored because 10 minuteslater they'll be saying something similar to another class, and 10 minutes after that ordering a newLaser... |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 10:57am |
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I'm unconvinced that the Vision weighs the same as it does in the brochure! Personally, I think there is a sweet spot for weight. Light enough to move around, heavy enough not to fall over when launched or blow off its trolley in "normal" weather.
I know none of this has anything to do with sailing qualities. Those are in the eye of the beholder, or we wouldn't have a world with both RS300s and Tideways racing. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 10:26am |
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I wasn't trying to say that beginners choose N12s, Solos or MRs. The point was that they are all pretty heavy boats, so for David to criticise the Vision for being heavy while praising MRs and Solos appears to be like the pot calling the kettle black. If a Vision is bad because heavy boats are bad then Solos, N12s and MRs are also bad, because they are also heavy boats by modern standards.
If light weight is what counts, then people shouldn't sail MRs and Solos but Icons, Tasars and Aeros. Edited by Chris 249 - 14 Feb 19 at 10:51am |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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H2
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Joined: 26 Jul 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:58am |
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Beginners choose Merlin or National 12? Maybe they do outside the UK but those are unlikely choices for a newby to the sport - certainly great choices as a second or third boat IMO!
Solo does get chosen a lot I guess, still not sure why apart from lots of people sail them
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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145 OK 2082 |
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:53am |
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Hang on, a Tasar or Icon are longer than a Merlin and 30kg lighter. The Vision is longer than a Merlin and 27kg heavier. So the Vision is closer to the Merlin than the Merlin is to an Icon or Tasar. If weight is bad, why bother with a heavy boat like a Merlin, N12 or Solo? To praise some heavy boats while damning another doesn't appear to be particularly even handed. If light weight counts, why not sail truly lightweight boats instead of MRs, N12s and Solos? If you can excuse the extra weight the MR, N12 and Solo carry, why can't you excuse the extra weight the Vision carries?
One thing that's certainly not going to grow the sport is people belittling the boats that many beginners choose. |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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davidyacht
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Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 9:19am |
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There is an RS Vision in the corner of our boatpark, I have never seen it being sailed. Every month we have a working party and move 50 or so Solos, Lasers, Merlin’s and N12’s in order to cut the grass. Any attempt to move the Vision is halted when we realise its weight ... which is probably why it does not get sailed ... polyethylene is a rubbish material for any sailing dinghies other than Teras or Toppers, and boats like this cannot be relied upon to grow the sport.
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Happily living in the past
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 5:08am |
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Whoops, my earlier answer got lost. Yes, most of the big boat manufacturers realised the issue - the fact that RS, J/boats etc listen to their customers instead of the hype seems to be a key to their success. But much of the rest of the sport - many national authorities, World Sailing, most of the sailing media, many sailors, etc - seem to still be committed to the "make it extreme and they will come" mindset. They do silly things like keep dinghies out of the Youth Olympics in favour of kites, proposing an Olympics where kites, skiffs and foilers dominate, and as you mention, mocking entry level boats. I get the feeling (and of course it could well be wrong) that in windsurfing some of the manufacturers may be leading the way against that sort of thinking in a more explicit fashion. |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 14 Feb 19 at 4:48am |
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Yes, right up till the end of his life (about three weeks before, if I recall correctly) Frank was advocating a switch to a carbon pole mast. The sticking points were (1) the class had fairly recently gone through some other significant changes (2) the new mast was spreaderless and therefore no one could be satisfied that it could be adjusted for crews of different weights.
One of those who raised the adjustment issue most strongly was a top-class international sailmaker who has been involved in leading edge sailcloth development, which is yet another indication that any inference that people want the rules "stuck in concrete" because they are against development or change per se is incorrect. Most people in most places around the world like their class rules to remain largely unchanged - look at the top classes in the USA, Australia, Germany etc and even in the UK to a large extent. We don't want to break classes apart, make boats uncompetitive, or exclude the owners who cannot afford the upgrade. We don't care if our one design race finishes 30 seconds earlier because we've all spend thousands improving our speed - if we want speed we'd get cats, foilers or kites. The push for this sort of change normally seems to come from people outside a class or in the industry - funny how easy it is to spend someone else's money or make someone else's boat obsolete! Edited by Chris 249 - 14 Feb 19 at 4:57am |
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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com
The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
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Cirrus
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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Posted: 13 Feb 19 at 7:32pm |
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Guess it would make a nonsense of the aerodymically efficient rotating rig You might be right ... but maybe not. If you have not used this system however the advantages and application may not be that obvious. When I raced Tasars a couple of decades ago a few crews did use the standard jib stick 'off' the opposing jib sheet some of the time allowing them a degree of control in a similar manner to the 'dangly' system. It worked very well in part but what a faff compared to the fully developed and tested dangly alternatives today !! When Icon went through development the first rigs were (larger) NS14 rotating ones. The dangly system worked very well with them but the overall (rotating) rig itself was not as good or as flexible across the wind range in use as hoped - hence the switch to a modest diameter but fixed non-rotating carbon stick. Bethwaite I think suggested at one point he would have gone for a slim carbon stick himself if they had made sense for the Taser in the 70's. Edited by Cirrus - 13 Feb 19 at 7:32pm |
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