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GB Sailing Challenge - still confused

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GB Sailing Challenge - still confused
    Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:37am
Originally posted by turnturtle

why not ditch the handicap system altogether and just arrange it like a festival of sailing in broadly aligned categories, free from this overly analytical BS that is supposedly the future of dinghy sailing?  

Personally, I wouldn't turn up if I had to race my Laser without handicap against an Aero 7 or Rooster 8.X Laser, which is probably about as narrow a range as you'll get, because it will mean that the result won't get down to a battle of skill. The slower boat can sail immaculately and still be beaten by guys on faster boats who don't stuff it up quite as badly as they usually do.

The other weekend we had a regatta where Lasers of various types were starting with three 100 8.4s and a Aero 7. The top Laser standard (best of all the singlehanders on yardstick) would have been second to one of the 100 8.4s if they'd been racing together over the line.  But the thing is, the Laser sailor's skill was irrelevant to a certain extent, because even if they sailed at 100% then all the RSs had to do was to sail at about 98% and they'd finish ahead. So when you're on a slower boat and you have to beat faster boats across the line, you don't really have any part to play in the result from some aspects - no matter how well you do, what it will get down to is whether the other guys sail a little bit less poorly than usual. You have no control over the outcome, and few people enjoy that.




Edited by Chris 249 - 27 Nov 18 at 9:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:53am
Originally posted by mozzy


What I'm getting at, is do you know what went wrong in the race you came 62nd? Where did you lose those twenty places? Or conversely where you gained them in the 42nd? Did you actually perform quite well in the 46th, making big gains on each leg, but just got a bad start or an unfortunate shift on the first beat? Can you correlate your performance with your result?

Those tend to be things that decide how rewarding I find the racing. In handicap racing the nuances of that get lost in the noise of different boats strengths and weaknesses. I often just end up looking at boats in my class... which makes me think, I'd be happier racing against a handful of my own class at a small open or in club racing and have less obstacle to get around!

+1. Actually, I don't mind an occasional fun race in a big mixed fleet but it gets old very quickly.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 10:22am
So back to the original post - if we put all the arguments about why handicap racing is so inferior to one side and accept that some people, however strange, will still use it then why not look for new ways to level measure a helms skill rather than the current method. For me I would be interested to see how a data driven approach could work that provided a dynamic handicap based on some variables such as windspeed. If that could be linked to a GPS unit that gave an instant readout of your current position so that you knew moment to moment on your position then that would be an interesting development that I would like to try out to see whether it was in fact an improvement on the current system.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 10:27am
H2, one thing I'm still unclear about, are there two sets of results for the event? Do you know what they were and which you thought was better reflection of your sailing?

Secondly, can you post a link to the GPS playback. I'm really interested to see what the extra value this gives. You say in the 46th you had a bad start then gradually gained back. But was that because of shifts or boat speed? What was different in that race that allowed you to gain so much? 

In a fleet race I'm always aware whether I'm gaining or losing places, and whether it's because of boat-speed, strategy or tactics simply by looking whether I'm gaining or losing on boat around me. Can the dynamic handicapping plug this gap? 


Edited by mozzy - 27 Nov 18 at 10:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 10:35am
Hi Mozzy - the website is a bit hard to use but hopefully this link will take you there http://selden.sailracer.org/eventsites/live-screen-tracking.asp?eventid=211504&labels=S

I must admit that I was not actually aware that they were using two different approaches, one for the DD and one for the Sailing Challenge and I have not gone looking for how I did except for the DD. I think Simon mentioned earlier in this post that they did not actually use the planned approach as they are still gathering data necessary to calibrate it. So to be clear I am not advocating that Simon and his team have this sorted but I am fine with them gathering the data and working out whether an alternative approach could work and I will be interested to see how they get along. If it is sh*t then I will be the first to say so!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 11:20am
Thanks... 

The GPS is okay... the playback wasn't super useful as the real time positions didn't seem to account for start time differences. Then on the last leg the positions seemed to change suddenly by quite a large amount as boats finished. It would be nice if the playback showed handicapped positions, rather than on the water positions. It was kinda messy to watch and I'm not sure I learnt anything from it. It would be good if you could choose maybe 5-10 boats, then the rest of the tracks were heat mapped as a background layer to show where the general fleet went. 

The 'legs' summary tab seems to give your corrected time for each leg. So you can see leg by leg how you did on handicap. Which is useful if you've not got any boats in your class to compare to. This tab also gives distance sailed and average knots plus VMG, however, this isn't handicapped data, so you can only compare it against your other legs and other boats of the same class. What would be nice is number of gybes and tacks per leg. Alongside distance sailed and VMG this would tell you whether the tacks for shift were worth the slow down in speed. 

I don't understand the predictions tab. They could do with some explanation on the meaning of each data column. 

What would be nice if they could heat map the course and see the days favoured strategy. Then filter the heat map by class to see where specific classes went, and also then filter by top 20 to see which way the leading boats tended to go. Or you could filter the top boats by leg and heat map all their tracks. They could show this on big screen in the bar and it would add some real value. 


Edited by mozzy - 27 Nov 18 at 11:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 11:44am
OH I totally agree that the presentation format is a nightmare and lots could be done to make it so much better to use! When you combine watching it with your personal memory of things that happened and decisions you made it becomes a lot more useful as a visual tool but looking at it cold is very hard to learn anything. But I am glad it exists and its a start with loads of areas for improvement!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 8:09pm
I don’t disagree that there is some potentially interesting post race analytics that can take place if the right data is collected. It seems very ambitious to use it as the basis for a handicap system.

I suppose you could have a probabilistic handicap system. Rather than a single, deterministic, handicap you have a spread (say Laser 1070-1120) with a probability assigned to each value.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by mozzy


Thanks... 
The GPS is okay... the playback wasn't super useful as the real time positions didn't seem to account for start time differences. Then on the last leg the positions seemed to change suddenly by quite a large amount as boats finished. It would be nice if the playback showed handicapped positions, rather than on the water positions. It was kinda messy to watch and I'm not sure I learnt anything from it. It would be good if you could choose maybe 5-10 boats, then the rest of the tracks were heat mapped as a background layer to show where the general fleet went. 
The 'legs' summary tab seems to give your corrected time for each leg. So you can see leg by leg how you did on handicap. Which is useful if you've not got any boats in your class to compare to. This tab also gives distance sailed and average knots plus VMG, however, this isn't handicapped data, so you can only compare it against your other legs and other boats of the same class. What would be nice is number of gybes and tacks per leg. Alongside distance sailed and VMG this would tell you whether the tacks for shift were worth the slow down in speed. 
I don't understand the predictions tab. They could do with some explanation on the meaning of each data column. 
What would be nice if they could heat map the course and see the days favoured strategy. Then filter the heat map by class to see where specific classes went, and also then filter by top 20 to see which way the leading boats tended to go. Or you could filter the top boats by leg and heat map all their tracks. They could show this on big screen in the bar and it would add some real value. 



We had the trackers at the 2000 Nationals. I thought it would be interesting to do some anslysis. But I quickly got bored. Why? Because it soon became apparent that on every leg the boats that gained were the ones that sailed the shortest distance. So what: there is s tracking capability. It’s ok to wAtch love, but if you’re sailing you don’t watch. So that’s not marketable. So it seems to me that this novel handicapping nonsense is a new way to put the tracking capability to work and at some point sailors will be asked to pay.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 18 at 9:30pm
You could just have spotted the hammer/nail interface.....

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Nov 18 at 9:45pm
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