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    Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by H2

So assuming that in this parallel universe of weird people that do find handicap racing fun - why not at least test out a different way to do it? Seems worth a pop to me!
No one's saying it can't be fun. But I have plenty of fun just sailing in the harbour. And sitting on the motorway really isn't fun. So what about these events warrants driving 3 hours, and paying a couple of hundred quid to do? 

The amount of people there is a big selling point. I've done these things in the past solely for that, and likely will in the future. 

But from my experience, the on the water racing experience isn't that great. It doesn't matter how it's diced up after the fact. I don't get that manoeuvre by manoeuvre, gust by gust feedback on my performance that I get from being involved in a class fleet race. So what extra value is there for me? Why is this a better future for the sport than fleet racing? 

H2, how did you rate your performance at the dash? What were the good bits and bad bits? How do you know where you lost and where you gained? Can you point to where that's reflected in the results? Which scoring method reflects your performance better and why? 
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by iGRF

My point is and always has been, the boat should be fixed and the man should be handicapped/rated and until that moment arrives it's always going to be a clusterf**k. Even in your precious class racing environment, there are going to be moments where dogs have their day according to their ability/racing weight/age/fitness/gender whatever. this is what should be considered.

I can kind of see your point, even though it doesn’t sound something I’d be interested in personally.  That would at least be a proper formulation based on tapes and scales, as opposed to the measure of divergence from the group average of one class against divergence from the group average of another - across totally difference waters and wind speeds to ‘even it up a bit’ over a series. 

However given what we have now, how would you feel about ditching the numbers altogether for a series - instead racing in groups- be that based on perceived ability or perceived boat speed around a course?    First across the line is the winner....  no ifs, no buts.  

That to me is a worthy experiment to seek out qualitative feedback from.... especially for something proporting to be purely about bringing folk together, whatever they choose to sail.


Edited by turnturtle - 26 Nov 18 at 3:04pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Making line honours the aim in a mixed fleet would involve banding at a fairly narrow level or boats with a PN at the top of the band would have little hope of a result. The speed difference (to take an extreme example) in our junior fleet between the Optimist and Laser 4.7s is fairly huge. Likewise between a GP and a Merlin. I'd say a PN difference of 100 points would be more than enough to discourage the slower boats in each band from turning out. I should point out I'm not a 'winning is everything' type (just as well given my results these days though I've done my share in the past) but it's nice to know you might be in with a chance of the odd decent result if everything comes together.

Let’s apply real world observations to that:

Kids classes - typically sailed in class in many clubs.  the club is either a Tera club, Oppy club, mirror club, cadet club etc.  Or if it really is a hotch-potch, do yourself (and your kids) a favour and move to one with some consistency.   

Merlin and GP - not in the same category surely?  

You also reference PY in the discussion... over time that metric would be lost, so the context loses relevance.  Even so, you are saying 100 points....  is a £500 sh*tter from the nettles not 100 points slower than the latest Laser with XD kit and a carbon top section?  Yet that £500 sh*tter can still outperform the new one given the right sailor of the right weight pointing it in the right direction.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:40pm
I do get that in an emerging fleet, mixed class racing can provide a wider context which adds depth and meaning.  I’m just not convinced that the wider context need be formed from a numeric calculation... and certainly not by over-complicating said numeric formulation away from what has become widely accepted.  I’m certainly not a proponent of mandating which boats people sail - far from it.  I just think grouping up and ditching PY would be a more worthwhile experiment than dealing further into the data-driven abyss.    

I rather liked your comments about beating Blazes over the water.  I took from that comment a sense of achievement, and a little bit of cheeky competition between two boats not that dissimilar that they can’t be raced side by side in light hearted racing.  I doubt the numbers and timings on spreadsheet made any difference to you in that moment of joy....  
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:35pm
Making line honours the aim in a mixed fleet would involve banding at a fairly narrow level or boats with a PN at the top of the band would have little hope of a result. The speed difference (to take an extreme example) in our junior fleet between the Optimist and Laser 4.7s is fairly huge. Likewise between a GP and a Merlin. I'd say a PN difference of 100 points would be more than enough to discourage the slower boats in each band from turning out. I should point out I'm not a 'winning is everything' type (just as well given my results these days though I've done my share in the past) but it's nice to know you might be in with a chance of the odd decent result if everything comes together.
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:32pm
TT - I get the best of both. This Sundays frostbite handicap series at SCSC saw 24 boats show up for two races of which 5 boats were H2s. I got to race against the five H2s as well as the other boats and yes I knew pretty well where I was placed all race long as I knew who the best racers were and was able to keep tabs of how far ahead I needed to be in order to win. The top four boats finished within 21 seconds of each other. Had it just been a fleet race then frankly I would have been bored but as it was I came away with a smile, a first and a second. Was a great way to spend a Sunday morning even if I did not get a BJ!
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:29pm
You can compare sea sweeping all you like, but like other muscle bulk derived activities it lacks the cranial finesse of sailing and using the 'force' to confound and confuse those that might be technically, physically or even financially superior to your own resources.

There is no greater feeling than being 1st over the water in the slowest boat out there, it doesn't happen that often, maybe once a year, but when it does there is no handicap known to man that will over awe sailing tactical genius..

My point is and always has been, the boat should be fixed and the man should be handicapped/rated and until that moment arrives it's always going to be a clusterf**k. Even in your precious class racing environment, there are going to be moments where dogs have their day according to their ability/racing weight/age/fitness/gender whatever. this is what should be considered.

Edited by iGRF - 26 Nov 18 at 2:32pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by H2

But lets face it lads - even if "handicap racing" could get dressed up and metaphorically give you a blow job you would still turn your nose up at her anyway so I am not surprised that she is not getting your vote. We know you like fleet race, we know you feel you are right, none of us care enough to argue.

So assuming that in this parallel universe of weird people that do find handicap racing fun - why not at least test out a different way to do it? Seems worth a pop to me!

Odd thought, you’ve done really well in getting H2 acceptance at South Cerney and a proper little fleet going....  I wonder how many of your H2 sailors care for their club result more than their result amongst the H2s (and maybe the other faster craft loosely sailing around you)? 

Worth noting your post in dinghy yarns too... surely other H2s around doesn’t help if handicap racing is good enough as it is  LOL

Originally posted by H2

Did many from here make it along this weekend to the Draycote Dash? Thought it was a good event which was well organised and I enjoyed sailing with everything from a foiling moth through to a topper on the same course. Helped that we had a good turn out of H2s as well for close racing!


Edited by turnturtle - 26 Nov 18 at 2:33pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:07pm
Actually I spent summer evenings in the UK participating in a paddleboard club on the River Thames.

It’s flat water stuff, it would look dull on YouTube, so no one filmed it for promotional purposes.  But it was suprisingly good fun - a metaphorical blowjob in excitement levels - no, definitely not.  But it was good fun nevertheless and that was with a false premise on my own part generated by historic windsurf snobbery towards pump-up surf boards.

We had some races too... no less competitive than some club dinghy racing I’ve done in the past.  But no one suggested we handicap people based on what kit they had.  The membership of the paddleboard club has grown 300% in the past two years since it was formed, and there’s talk of getting into some of the ‘proper’ organised paddle events around the country as a ‘team’ - but the question is, do we all buy N1SCO one designs from Naish or go for the open events - which have categories, but no handicaps.... same sh*t, different sport you could say.  But at the club level it’s just a group exercise and its simplicity makes it very attractive to newbies and converts from other board and watersports alike... I hope we don’t go down Alice’s rabbit hole the way sailing has.   


Edited by turnturtle - 26 Nov 18 at 2:17pm
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by H2

But lets face it lads - even if "handicap racing" could get dressed up and metaphorically give you a blow job you would still turn your nose up at her anyway so I am not surprised that she is not getting your vote. We know you like fleet race, we know you feel you are right, none of us care enough to argue.

So assuming that in this parallel universe of weird people that do find handicap racing fun - why not at least test out a different way to do it? Seems worth a pop to me!

Not such a weird parallel universe me thinks, there seem to be rather a lot of us in it ...  Clap Clap
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