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GB Sailing Challenge - still confused

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    Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey


Originally posted by Peaky

Are you saying that handicaps are (re)calculated and (re)applied on a leg by leg basis accounting for wind strength, relative direction, leg length etc based upon a growing database of measured, real world, performance? A set of measured polars, used to create a constantly varying handicap that is class based but applied to individual boats as they experience the wind etc?

yes that is the aim

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Old Timer

It’s good to see innovation. 

Let’s face it, the standard open circuit model is hardly booming. 

That depends upon the class of dinghy ... Solos, Merlin’s, RS200 are doing alright.

That is not that I am against innovation, if Handicap racing was made more credible I would have greater enthusiasm for it, rather than it being something that has to be suffered when the Sailing Committee put it on the calendar.

We have loads of classes and you quote a few, and even those are localised. 

The days of people dragging dinghies around to opens are behind us, costs and traffic have scuppered that b


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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:06pm
I'm sure the gist of Peter Johnson's book Yacht Rating was that time-on-time was superior to time-on-distance, as it more simply accounts for changing conditions. Though it was written 20 years ago. 

Since then big boat racing (in the US & Europe) has been round in a giant circle, at no small expense, pursuing 'scientific handicapping' and seems to have pretty much ended up back at 'Every dog has its day'...

It sounds like an interesting experiment, but even if it was successful I suspect human nature would mean there'd still be plenty of whinging about bandits.  Wink

Not sure that yet more events taking people away from competing at their own club are actually a good idea for the health of the sport.






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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:39pm
TBH I suspect every dog has its day is a big part of the appeal of handicap racing. If people really liked class racing it wouldn't be so difficult to build a fleet at a club and so easy for it to fall apart.

Edited by JimC - 25 Nov 18 at 10:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:58pm
Sample sizes for evaluating complete races are pretty small for most classes, dividing that sample into laps/legs/wind strength variants seems unlikely to improve things?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 11:02pm
It is simply like herding cats... against a back drop of grand parsimony.

Truth for me is that s bit of break from competitive sailing and just messing around on various toys from beach cats to paddle boards makes me realise the benefit of the clas racing that’s left... be that at a local club in a Laser or Solo, or something nicer with a few miles between the venues.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 11:22pm
That's the point though. If class racing was genuinely valued then once you got a fleet to a critical mass the brakes would be off and more and more people would pile in.

Its precisely because building and in particular maintaining a fleet is like herding cats that I'm beginning to wonder whether a theoretical handicapping system that eliminated variables like weather, wind strength, boat design, sailor weight etc so it was much more like class racing would be genuinely more popular. With "every dog has its day" racing over the course of a season rather more people get to have a day when they go home with a big grin on their face.

After all, in the grand scheme of things, it matters not one jot how "fair" club racing is, what matters is how many people have fun doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 8:46am
I agree totally on your last point, but wonder whether this quasi science with staitistics really is the right solution, after all numbers continue to decline and PY has been the club racing firm favourite for several decades now. Secondly, deep down, most of us know that if you want proper competition and some genuine progression, you need to put the miles in in a sensible class which at least vaguely suits our demographic, fitness level and body weight - how else can we explain the popularity of the Supernova?

Our local leisure centres are rammed with people doing fitness classes. Local five a side leagues are thriving. There are heards of mamils out every Sunday clogging our roads- and good luck to them. None of these community sports programmes even try to handicap their players- yet two which do, golf and sailing, are two which seem to definitely be the wrong side of a boom and bust model. I don’t think it’s solely down to handicap racing, but It can’t always be helping.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 9:05am
Originally posted by turnturtle

I agree totally on your last point, but wonder whether this quasi science with staitistics really is the right solution, after all numbers continue to decline and PY has been the club racing firm favourite for several decades now. Secondly, deep down, most of us know that if you want proper competition and some genuine progression, you need to put the miles in in a sensible class which at least vaguely suits our demographic, fitness level and body weight - how else can we explain the popularity of the Supernova?

Our local leisure centres are rammed with people doing fitness classes. Local five a side leagues are thriving. There are heards of mamils out every Sunday clogging our roads- and good luck to them. None of these community sports programmes even try to handicap their players- yet two which do, golf and sailing, are two which seem to definitely be the wrong side of a boom and bust model. I don’t think it’s solely down to handicap racing, but It can’t always be helping.

As I've said before, I think the emphasis on winning PY races is the downfall of all but a very few (usually the same people year on year) who go to a sailing club with winning as the sole determining factor on whether they enjoy their day or not.  There are shedloads more cyclists enjoying spinning along with mates or alone than there are entering club TT's and there are millions more gym members doing classes than there are entrants in competitive events.  The point? have FUN, you don't get much time to enjoy your leisure these days with time pressures from family, travelling, 24/7 shopping and the 'joy' of work finding you via your phone, in office hours or not.

Bottom line, for me, is go sailing in a boat you enjoy, at a venue you like and suits your preferences and with people you like having a chat with in the boat park, bar and on the water.  People measuring rake and shouting rules can have their day, good luck to them, but I can't help thinking they are missing out on one of lifes' great pleasures;.. a good, relatively relaxing* day's sailing in good company.

BTW, PY will never be perfect, accept that and move on, while retaining the option to have a good 'debate' in the bar aferwards about boats, bandits and go-faster bimbles.

*as I like high performance dinghies so a good bit of exercise is part of it for me


Edited by getafix - 26 Nov 18 at 9:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 18 at 10:18am
Making the handicaps more accurate is missing the point that they are more accurately measuring an unfair comparison. At the end of the day, you're comparing how far above or below the average for their class each sailor is, then extrapolating out. Also, the more dynamic and intangible the handicapping system is, the less faith many will have in it, regardless of accuracy.   

If having a bit of fun, even if it's based on a flawed concept, for the sake of encouraging participation is you're aim, then a decent bit of error is expected and is part of what makes it so throwaway and carefree. 

But... there is so much more depth to the 'game' of fleet racing which makes the sport fantastic for me. Personally, I'm unlikely to ever commit much time to going to handicap event (I might for the social). 

I do have a feeling that the success of the sail-juice series draws partly from the drop in participation at a local level and it's expansion to the summer months, whilst seen as good for the series, might be a bad indicator for the sport. 
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