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GB Sailing Challenge - still confused
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GB Sailing Challenge - still confused
    Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by JimC

It can only be a good thing to try different stuff in a dual scored event. No-one pretends that we have a perfect system of handicapping dinghies, and if you don't try different ideas you won't learn.

Exactly


We believe that given the availability of modern technology a more innovative big data approach to handicap racing can bring many benefits. As mentioned by other people we agree that it is also important to try new ideas.

Firstly the Draycote Dash was scored in the traditional manner,  using time on time over average laps,  corrected to Great Lakes Handicaps,  so hopefully no confusion there.

Secondly,  as the Great British Sailing Challenge article outlines, we also scored the racing using a more data driven approach.  We appreciate there is much to take onboard here and it is still early days with the algorithms being refined as more data becomes available.  I will be at the Datchet Flyer (8/9 Dec) and happy to chat through things.   We are also planning a series of webinars to help people's understanding.

In essence our aim is to produce a performance measure based around big data that can allow comparison across different boat types and weather conditions.  We are collecting an enormous amount of data :  leg length,  leg angles,  boat leg times,  boat speeds,  boat VMGs,  boat angles,  wind speed,  wind direction and looking to the future, tide data.  Then there are various algorithms that process all this data. Some of these will be familiar to people and follow similar methodology to calculating PYs,  but on a much more granular basis.

As more races get covered and people start to see the analytics, comparison and progression of different sailors things will become clearer.     
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:58am
As I said, I have nothing against trying new things but this seems to be a race where the competitors don’t know how the winner is determined. It might be the best idea in the world, but the details appear to be a well kept secret!
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:48am
As part of not one but two projects that I have on the go right now, I've been trawling back into the distant past of our sport. It might be a good thing that iGRF isn't a historian, for some of the tales of PY manipulation would certainly reinforce some of his more  pointed views on how certain boats have been knobbled - or given a boost - by a helping hand in the PY committee(we're talking 40 years ago now so this isn't a nip at anyone currently involved). As to the very revealing comments on how the Laser got awarded International Status, when they were operating in defiance of some of the IYRU's stongest strictures.....with the benefit of 'history' and some correspondence written on asbestos paper, that WS are now reaping problems that the IRU had sown so many years ago. 
But back to PYs  -even as late as 1972, there were people making a strong case for a more demanding handicap system, with alternatives such as time on distance AND - a calculation of loa, swa, sa, weight and a degree of difficulty factor (now where have we heard that before?/) that would arrive at a more 'meaningful' PY number.
It was harder to do back then as there simply wasn't the easily available computing power but today, yes, there could be better systems. As Jim C has again pointed out, if you don't try, how will you get know if there is something better. Running the two in parallel seems a good way to find out and so far - doing so in as transparent manner as possible allows us all to comment.
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Old Timer View Drop Down
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:46am
It’s good to see innovation. 

Let’s face it, the standard open circuit model is hardly booming. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 18 at 10:28am
It can only be a good thing to try different stuff in a dual scored event. No-one pretends that we have a perfect system of handicapping dinghies, and if you don't try different ideas you won't learn.

In particular if you don't try things you probably won't learn about unintended consequences. I recall, for instance, a scoring system called Ostrobogolous, which was intended to keep a series alive to the end. It did that very well, but at the cost, as I discovered when I did some modelling, that results at the beginning of the series had no effect on the final score!
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 18 at 9:42pm
Sometime 'different' is not 'better'. The problem is convincing people.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 24 Nov 18 at 9:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 18 at 8:57pm
I’m not adverse to change, but I am really struggling to understand what this involves and why it is better.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 18 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Peaky

If true, a needlessly complicated way of not encouraging participation...


It’s the future of competitive dinghy sailing didn’t you know?


So the people selling it keep telling us!
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 18 at 5:28pm
Wish somebody had reminded me, I fancied doing it this year.. oh well
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 18 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Peaky

If true, a needlessly complicated way of not encouraging participation...


It’s the future of competitive dinghy sailing didn’t you know?
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