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A new class of dinghy?
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Neal_g View Drop Down
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Posts: 323 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new class of dinghy?
    Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 2:19am
Lets start simple for this 1 person 2 person boat igrf
Lets start with vast knowledge of plank and wafting technology's
Ive seen tandem windsurf boards but why are they so big and wide compared to a normal windsurf board i want one board and one sail to do everything can you fix it for me please in windsurfing oh rhe other caveats
1. Must cost less than 100 pounds
2. Must involve no training time for me to be good at it
3. Must have a fleet of 500 boards nationally from outset
4. Full active fleet racing but also excellent fixed handicap

While we're on it could you also sort the car thing out id like a car for the whole family the size of a smart car so easy to park with the boot size of a vw transporter for accomodation at events which runs on. Leaves and plant extracts but goes like a f1 car and sounds like a v12.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 4:36am
Originally posted by 423zero

Trapeze the Fireball single handed ?

A planked Furball, with jib, was one of the fastest boats in the first set of the trials that eventually chose the Contender.  IMHO a slender boat of that sort of length could be a reasonable one up/two up proposition. I've seen a modified Contender with jib, racks, assy and two light crew, and they seemed to be having fun.

I have been musing about converting one of our old club Lasers into a doublehanded sloop for kids. Steve Clark once wrote on SA, I believe, that it wasn't too hard to fit the standard boat with trap and stays. As a sloop, you'd sheet the main in tighter and that could keep the helm balance reasonable despite the addition of the jib.


Edited by Chris 249 - 13 Sep 18 at 6:12am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 6:09am
Rather than move mast and rigging would it be possible to move centre board case backwards and forwards ?
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 7:30am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by boatshed

Thing is, the Tasar is a real pleasure to sail. The Ent ain't. Irrespective of association members, I'd take a Tasar over an Ent any day. The Ent is only better in a drifter.

I can't say I agree with the Ent not being a pleasure to sail in anything but a drifter. Sure it's a handful in F5+ but up to there it's a very well mannered boat. TBF I haven't sailed a Tasar but, if it has a similar rocker to my Blaze I can understand it being brilliant fun when the wind is up but it's lack of rocker that makes the Blaze so good when it's windy that makes it sticky in the light. That is the compromise the designers made when they drew the lines for the Blaze and Tasar.

You should try a Tasar if you get a chance.  I know iGRF bangs on about old stuff being rubbish but the Tasar still has a very decent spec for a boat launched in 1975.   Just under 12m2 of sail and 68kg fully rigged ex sails.  It is immensely comfy to sail and comes up from a capsize without being swamped.

The rig is ingenious and very interesting being manually rotated by the crew as well as the mast being a 'chopped' wing section.  This,  with its fully battened main makes it  hugely efficient giving the boat its quick PY for a modest sail area and no kite.

These quick spec comparisons are interesting:

Tasar 11.9m2 sail  68kg rigged, py 1015
Blaze 10m2 sail   72kg hull only  py 1027
RS200 11.5m2 sail  78kg hull only py 1046
Ent  10.7m2 sail  94kg hull only py 1116

If I were in the market again for a two person, round the cans boat, the Tasar would be high on my list.  The class very much attracts mixed sex crews making for good events.

I thought I would do a tiny bit of crude research into the rocker of the Tasar vs the Blaze.  Make of it what you will but the pic below shows the Tasar having a reasonable amount rocker vs the Blaze's minimal rocker.  The Tasar also has quite a fine bow.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 8:37am
The big difference with the Blaze is the location of the rocker: well aft. This was a UK fashion in the 80s, particularly one designer. It has some advantages - the boats tended to be quite safe downwind and carry weight well, but one huge disadvantage - its dog slow.


Edited by JimC - 13 Sep 18 at 8:39am
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 8:46am
Originally posted by zippyRN

a keel  stepped mast will stand on  it;s own   while you connect  and adjust  the shrouds  / forestay 

a  deck stepped mast requires a  strong person to  hold the mast  in place 

i have NEVER seen someone rig an ent  from   travelling condition  single handed 
 

I don't know where you sail but stepping a deck stepped mast singlehanded is a doddle, boat on trailer, bow down, lie mast along boat heel forward, attach shrouds, lift mast onto boat, hold in place with a halyard until forestay attached then attach lowers and other bits. 15 mins from trailing to sailing on a good day, I do it on the Blaze every couple of weeks. An Enterprise mast is no heavier or longer so same procedure. Spice OTOH is a good bit longer and heavier and hog stepped. That wouldn't be a problem if it went into a gate GP style and could be stepped then lifted up into the gat from the back of the boat but it has to be dropped through an enclosed gate in the space frame and located into the mast step. A loss of balance between getting it upright and part through and it being securely stepped and serious damage to the mast or boat would undoubtedly occur.

@boatshed, I would love a sail in a Tasar, I have considered one for when I get too old for the Spice.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 8:49am
The Tasar is 68kg hull + fittings - no spars, sails or foils. Mine was light, so it needs to carry correctors but I had a cunning plan and made up a carbon fibre and Nomex container for my corrector weight. Then after repairs it came in overweight, which was puzzling until we came ashore after a capsize and found that we'd had a paddle, an old wetsuit vest and some full drink bottles wedged up under the side tank for a season or two. Embarrassed

We don't use our Tasar much these days but I can recall stepping back into it from the Formula 18 cat and being entranced by its sensitivity and balance.  The only time I tried an Ent it was on a narrow river in light winds, which was obviously the sort of conditions it revels in, and I could definitely see its attraction in such conditions. It seemed much more comfortable for the crew, got along quite nicely, and best of all we had other Ents to play with.

I don't have any problems stepping the Tasar's deck stepped mast, nor did I have problems with the 420 or Flying 15 and their keel stepped masts with gates. I wonder if it depends whether you stand beside the boat or in it? 


Edited by Chris 249 - 13 Sep 18 at 8:55am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 9:18am
Originally posted by 423zero

Trapeze the Fireball single handed ?


Never having sailed one, I wouldn't know, but I've always liked the lines of the hull, shame about the rig and the weight, but the volume of the hull can obviously cope with two, so to single hand it would be an exercise in rig placement and mainsail size.

So it's as easy as ABC

A) Build a fireball hull down to a half decent weight like 45 kgs or less with decent "light" foils

B) Design a single handed depowerable luff curve carbon trapeze rig around 9.0-10.0sg mtr mounted in a sliding track back and forward a bit from where it is now.

C) Organise a jib kite set up appropriate to the customer individual requirement, offer both Sym or Assym option.

And put me down for one. I'll take an Assym in black with red kite please.

Edited by iGRF - 13 Sep 18 at 9:20am
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 9:32am
The big difference with the Blaze is the location of the rocker: well aft. This was a UK fashion in the 80s, particularly one designer. It has some advantages - the boats tended to be quite safe downwind and carry weight well, but one huge disadvantage - its dog slow.

Jim ... you are misguided and making assumptions and generalisations on this one.  Many of Howlett type hulls of that time could be partly as you describe .... this one however was significantly modified around the time it went to tooling in '96.  (It is a bit of an old chestnut of yours we know already  !)    It is still low rocker BUT if you do know how to sail them they can still do rather well in the light stuff ... maybe not 'Phantom like' in a drifter but the same hull/rig characteristics also make it really quite quick in comparison in any proper wind.... you know the sort of day many of us, perhaps still the majority,  who look forward to when we are sailing.   (Can't think the last time, in any class either, I recall a day as "fantastic.. a real drifter, what a great day it was and the boat went like a train - can't wait until the next proper light wind day")

No one hull can be all things to all people ....  however much it would be great for the builders and appeal to a few on this forum.   Compromise everything for ultimate use flexibility and you can get a boat, or any other product, that could just as easily end up doing nothing particulaly well in any circumstances.  

Do consider that some prefer cross-country sking as well  ... LOL  (still can't do it on the same equipment mind you)


Edited by Cirrus - 13 Sep 18 at 9:33am
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 18 at 9:40am
Not sure what JimC is meaning, the Blaze has all it's rocker aft? The Tasar does? or what? Either way the Blaze is not 'dog slow' offwind in a blow, far from it but it is very well mannered. It is not quick dead downwind in a drifter though and I struggle to keep up with the Ents and L@sers but that's the compromise I chose to accept.
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