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How windy is too windy
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blueboy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Sep 18 at 7:43am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by jeffers

Personally, I feel responsible for my own decision when I go sailing. If I don't like the conditions I turn round and go back ashore.

You can't necessarily do that. For example if you sail out to Hayling Bay on a building ebb in a strong S/SW, you'd have a very exciting time returning before the ebb slackens due to the large and sometimes breaking waves that build in the entrance. Local clubs will time racing with exactly that in mind, to get sailors back in after 2 races when the waves in the entrance have flattened. Capsizes when attempting to come home with the ebb still running in 20/25 knots are liable to be mast breaking experiences.   

And were that my local water I would know that. Were I a racing visitor I would expect advice from the club/organisers. 

Were I a casual visitor intending to do sailing I would do my homework.

Good for you. I can tell you that locals and organisers give safety briefings to visitors, a significant proportion of whom then take not the slightest bit of notice. 
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 18 at 7:09am
Yes I'm aware of the kicker issue. But I'm not sure I understand what the mechanism is for the kicker to entrap?  Do you have the detail on the incident you mention 423 zero?

I can see that you might get caught on it if there is a protruding shackle end or similar.  There might be some boats where, in a capsize you could be caught between the kicker and side deck. Theoretically there are some boats in which you could capsize with head and shoulders between kicker and mast....but that can't be easy. Once turtled the trapping between the side deck and kicker should always go away, and the natural slope of the kicker should make entrapment with it difficult,

A multi-purchase kicker that was left slack could undoubtedly be an issue entrapping a body part if it went tight.....but that would be dangerous when upright too!
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 18 at 7:01am
I suspect that the greatest risks to life and limb are from;
1.  Safety boats operating one up
2.  Safety boats operated by incompetent crew
3.  Safety boats operated by competent crew
However 1 and 2 are the reality that many races are held under.  To do anything about it would see many dinghy races binned.  The evaluation of this is probably the most challenging aspect of a Race Officers Duty.
Happily living in the past
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 18 at 6:16am
Only seen one entrapment, that was a kicker, new member, inexperienced, SI at the time got hysterical over safety crew cutting the kicker, ranting about damaged club boat and more training for safety crews.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 11:34pm
Looking at this report sailing does indeed have a pretty good record. I'd be interested to know what companies and circumstances do charge extra premiums to recreational sailors - I've never heard of it.

http://www.nationalwatersafety.org.uk/waid/info/waid_fatalincidentreport_2017.xls

Accident/Natural Causes drownings 2017

Angling      10
Animal rescue     1
Bath             10
Climbing/cliff     1
Commercial     7
Cycling             3
Jumping/diving in     10
Manually powered boats     6
Motor vehicle     10
Motorboating     10
Person/object in water, person of uncertain status     14
Personal water craft     2
Recreational flying     2
Sailing     2
Sub aqua diver     16
Swimming     35
Walking/running     106
Waterside activity/in water play     9
Windsurfing/kitesurfing     1
Grand Total     255

It seems there were more drownings from cycling than sailing!

On entrapment though, I understood that when they did the survey there were far more incidents related to getting tangled in the kicking strap than involving trapeze hooks.

Edited by JimC - 04 Sep 18 at 11:36pm
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 10:20pm
I'm conflicted here. You can't get away from the Organising Authority responsibilities....but I also see where the RO is coming from.  I also sailed in a Class which added maximum and minimum wind strengths partially to avoid undue influence from Class committee members. The decision to do so leant heavily on the RYA guidance.

But here is another thought:

I beat the charging of premiums for sailing as an Extreme sport is not based on rigorous analysis of risk. I'd like to see some stats but my bias and heuristics suggest that sailing, especially dinghy sailing is actually a low injury/death incidence sport, measured per competitor and especially per competitor hour (although per competitor hour may make yachting look safer?).

What are the risks?

Mechanical injury from boom etc. Crush injury to extremities.  Musculo-skeletal sprains etc.
In most cases on a two hander recovery by patrol boat is a nice to have but not essential. Perhaps less so on a single hander.

Hypothermia. Either because its really cold. Or because you didn't dress for immersion. Or because you are out there longer than planned. A real issue, but not one related to the safety fleet capability in most cases. If 50% of the fleet are capsized, most of them won't be hypothermically cold....at least for most of the year.

Capsize. So what! Modern boats float. They are relatively easy to find. They drift slowly when turtled and you can sit on the vast majority of them. Black neoprene shows on white hull etc.

Entrapment.  Lot's of work and stats on this. The issue is not turtling since the vast majority of boats have a big air gap. Rather its being hooked by something or tangled in something. But again on the vast majority of non-trapeze boats it is very hard to get caught in a rope which would pull you down when the boat is turtled: on most the only rope below you and accessible is the mainsheet. There are more options for getting caught when capsized. I had another annoying conversation about the death at the 4000 Nationals at Abersoch which attributed it to entrapment on a trapeze boat with a limited air pocket, when in fact its a matter of record that the cause of death was a heart attack. 

Gear failure....so you need a tow. But maybe without your mast you are less vulnerable because you can't be seen.  That's important.  The only bit that worries me as an Opi parent is towing!  At the mercy of crews of mixed experience and with a loaded rope around. I have a friend who had to be cut out of an Opi tow with the line around his neck, after he was capsized by a boat steering away from the point of tow and pulling him over with its painter against his mast.

And then there is launch and recovery....I bet that's where the majority of benign condition and many high wind injuries happen.

So what's really dangerous: losing a boat or sailor. Because they get hypothermia. I wonder how many safety fleets regularly do a shepherd run to leeward/down tide of the course area? Probably not enough.

Of course you might also get out hypothermia because you can't get out of teh water into your boat.  Of course in many conditions where you need this in can be hard for the patrol craft to help.  Especially if there are waves. On my Rib in these conditions I tie my little fender onto a chunky old sheet and use it as a grab line. That way I can recover the sailor without putting any part of the boat near him.....I still go cold at the thought of a RIB nearly dropping its bow on my wife and I in a F5-6 in Mount's Bay when we were trying to get on with righting our 400.

So the critical question is perhaps not wind or waves, but weather it is possible to recover a sailor separated from his boat (a function of the first 2?) and whether it is possible to maintain eyes on the whole fleet with certainty, including boats that have lost their rig or dropped their sail or are turtled. Radius of search gets big pretty quickly in such conditions.....

And then there is the third factor....it may be easier to sail in offshore winds with less wave, but the results of a lost boat in this circumstance might be worse than in the lumpy onshore.....unless the lee shore is unfriendly. That said unless the waves are breaking on rocks or the tide will remove any shelter soon even then its not life as opposed to boat threatening. And on lakes and reservoirs?

Tired people landing in waves that are dumping on the shore is the really bad scenario.....still don't see many broken people rather than boats do you?

So for me the risk to life and limb is overstated and patrol boats actually don't do much to mitigate the really important stuff anyway....other than lost boat.




 
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ClubRacer View Drop Down
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Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 9:20pm
Its a little like fake news

I've been deliberately vague and miss leading in my OP as to keep some anonymity for the race committee as to not discredit the truly good job they did over the course of the event.

Im not here to score fake internet points, merely express my frustration in what seems to be rash decisions to abandon perfectly acceptable sailing conditions 

Taken from the RYA race management guide

DECISION TO RACE
 If it is possible to race with the wind at the time then racing should commence. It is unfair to some competitors to wait for ‘better’ conditions. Most boats can sail well enough to race in 4 knots of wind and start to get into trouble in winds of 25 knots or more. There are, of course, exceptions to this. Tide and current will influence bottom end wind speeds in that in strong currents a higher wind speed is necessary to achieve fair racing. 

In general, it is not considered to be best practice to run racing ahead of schedule. When it is believed that the weather will be unsailable the next day, heavy wind sailors may be disadvantaged should racing be possible. For similar reasons racing should not be postponed for the day too early.

I would be more than happy if RO's stuck to a guideline of 25 knots with average water conditions and then changed it accordingly (lowering to lets say 20 with a big swell and raising it to 30 if you're sailing on a big reservoir). The real issue I have is that abandoning on "safety" grounds is just too easy.












Edited by ClubRacer - 04 Sep 18 at 9:21pm
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 6:06pm
Although we race on the sea, the water is covered by a major harbour authority. For us to run an open meeting, let alone a Championships, I have to carefully complete a highly formalised Risk Assessment, which on completion is copied to the Harbour Master's Office, the MCA and the ferry companies. The RO signs off on this - and as he is an appointee of the host Club (back to that Organizing Authority again: RRS Part 7, 89.1 and 89.2) this is effect ties the club to the terms of the Risk Assessment. Say what you do, do what you say, document it  - because were something to every go wrong, it is the Club and the person who signed on behalf of the club 0 the RO again - who will be called to give account for his actions. Graeme Fuller was 100% correct in his last post - the buck stops with the RO and it is his decision and his alone that he will be judged on. 
Which brings me back AGAIN to the OP - one individual questioning one RO at one club. What did go on there?? Was it, as the OP suggested, a total screw up? Without more detail we've spent all these pages chasing our tails for something that might be little more than fake news - after all, who hasn't gone away from an event thinking the RO was a toss pot because he made decisions that went against you. The difference is, that most of us know that we all have the ability to be toss pots now and then, sailors, ROs, all of us - the difference being we don't all take to social media to score points.

D
Dougal H
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 5:52pm
is this too windy ?
Image result for rescue sailing dinghy crew in the water
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 5:48pm
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Club_Zone/06_Club_Mangement/05_Health_and_Safety/RYA%20RACE%20TRAINING%20AND%20EVENT%20MANAGEMENT%20-%20LEGAL%20ASPECTS.pdf

Here's an RYA Paper on the subject of negligence and the law.
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