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A new class of dinghy?
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new class of dinghy?
    Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 10:18am
Originally posted by RS400atC

 
Who are all these people looking for 2 person, 2 sail boats?
Between the Firefly, N12, Ent, Tasar, Albacore, Laser 2 (original base model, +/- trapeze), a few rotoboats and the Icon, there are plenty of choices?
Or you could take any spinnaker boat and agree a 'white sails' yardstick. Yachts do this sometimes.

And add Graduate & Heron (is/was the Heron ever available in GRP?) to the smaller end of that list.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 10:19am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Gfinch

So people are looking for a boat with 2 sails where they won't scare a crew?

National 12 is perfect surely?

Ok a bit exciting in a breeze but no kite to worry about.
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Who are all these people looking for 2 person, 2 sail boats?
Between the Firefly, N12, Ent, Tasar, Albacore, Laser 2 (original base model, +/- trapeze), a few rotoboats and the Icon, there are plenty of choices?
Or you could take any spinnaker boat and agree a 'white sails' yardstick. Yachts do this sometimes.

Firefly = cramped does not carry weight ... 60 year old design
N12 = can be tricky to sail, expensive rudder technology, no seats, does not carry weight
Enterprise = nearest to an all round weight carrier with seats ... 60 year old design
Tasar = near the brief, sticky in light winds ... does not sail to PY in light conditions
Albacore = heavy, difficult for lightweights ... 60 year old design
Laser 2 = uncomfortable ... too much of a sit on boat ... 40 year old design
Rotoboats = rotoboat
Icon = potentially the answer ... difficulties explained elsewhere

The niche could be a 2018 design, drawing from Aero technology, that has sufficient length and volume to carry normal sized people in relative comfort on beat and running courses.  Simple but not basic rig.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 10:41am
Originally posted by turnturtle

 
The singlehanded format was what really interested me with the Icon - I don't think there's been any really good large single handers which can handle an occasional crew properly, or vice versa.... certainly not in monohulls.   Now there's probably good reason for that so far, but it's a design attribute that I don't think I'm alone in wanting to see available. 

I'm also guessing for those with NS14s and using them singlehanded, being quicker than a Laser really wasn't that much of an objective - it would have been versatility from just one boat.  But if as I suspect, anything similar in the Northern hemisphere it would be a bit of billy no mates class - especially within the context of local club racing, then it would need to have enough about it in terms of sailing experience to really make the transition from whatever the local fleet race option is worth it.    

Yep, I think you're right that speed wasn't the intention; I was just interested in the way the physics meant that the lovely NS14 hull and rig went no quicker than the Laser.

The NZ Jollyboat is interesting since it's sailed one-up with jib or two-up with jib. I tend to think the dual-crew mono would be a great boat but it would probably be quite long and skinny. The concept works well in cats, where a couple of our 16 footers (the Mosquito and Taipan) race one-up and two-up, as do some of the old 14 foot surfcat types.

I've actually wondered about converting an old club Laser to sloop rig for some of our juniors. An old SA post from Steve Clark indicated that fitting a trap and stays can work OK on a Laser, so if we hack into an old hull we could have a multi-mode frankenboat. However, when I saw that the possible donor hull was a 10,00X I claimed it since I'd love to clean it up, put the good gear from the new boat I'm going to buy, and freak people out by taking it to regattas if it goes OK.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 10:41am
So between them the Albacore and Firefly are 60 year old solutions to a time-independent question?

Maybe an ultralight boat would have a market, but ISTM that the extra performamce you get from an ultralight boat might be better directed to a spinnaker boat?
The people who want a simple 2 -sail boat are possibly not looking for that performance boost?

My point wasn't really that 'it's impossible to design a better boat', more that the 2 person, 2 sails market is fairly well catered for so a new class would face stiff competition from established classes.

Also just maybe you don't get the same 'ultralight' feel in a 2 person boat, because the helm is working with/against  the mass of boat plus crew? The better the helm and crew work together, the less this would be the case.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 11:00am
The problem for a new boat would be that, as you say, the Enterprise already ticks nearly all the boxes. I don't see the 60 year old design as a negative either, if you compromise by building a lighter, flat rockered Ent you'd lose light wind performance and some stability and increase the cost. 

WRT a 'white sails' PN IIRC the difference between using and not using a spinnaker is usually considered to be around 4% (or 40 PY points on a boat with a PN of around 1000). Roughly the same as the difference between sailing singlehanded or with a crew in a two hander (the weight advantage of no crew means you might reduce the PN by 4% though this really only applies in the light). I won a race a couple of years ago sailing the Spice alone with no kite, my argument that the weight advantage was offset by my not use the kite was accepted and I won in drifting conditions. The second race fro the trophy in question was in F3 and I got 'mullered' 'cos I though it only fair to sail the whole series (of two races) singlehanded  Ouch
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 11:30am
In all this talk of double handers, I saw a bellend jeep in a garage not long ago that looked as if it had been breathed on recently by lipstickers. Wouldn't that tick the two hander box? No point even thinking about developing a class that would run contrary to the trend against two handers, it would be commercial suicide. The PYAG clearly don't want new two handers the way they've dealt with every recent offering.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 11:39am
My thinking is that there are a lot of 50+ sailors who have shifted to singlehanders who might consider a second boat to sail with others, including children and grandchildren, who may be looking for something light to move around, and stylish, maintenance free, but does not require a regular crew in order to be competitive, and is not so sophisticated that you need to sail it every weekend to remember the settings.  Non-assymetric because I sail somewhere that assymetrics will never be competitive, like quite a lot of places.

It probably would be commercially non viable but this is a forum.
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 11:42am
Why is the Laser 2 on your list, it's got a spinnaker and a trapeze, so well and truly outside of the niche you are looking at.

In terms of developing a new boat for the 2 sail, 2 person market, what are you hoping to achieve? Our knowledge of fluid dynamics over the last 50yrs hasn't really changed, we have just succeeded in developing the tools to enable ever more precise optimization. That optimisation enables a tiny performance benefit but more often than not has the knock on effect of making the performance groove very narrow and therefore for all but the best the boat will be no better than the old designs that have huge invested user groups.

This is one reason I suspect why Enterprise sailors world wide didn't all jump ship into Icons.

It's been said elsewhere on this thread but the wide groove and performance through all conditions are what people are buying into. Until a new boat can demonstrate this, people will stay with what they are comfortable with.
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 12:10pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by 423zero

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