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How windy is too windy
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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How windy is too windy
    Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 9:11am
JimC posted the links to the Ridd v RYA case on these very forums https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13159&title=rya-to-cease-as-ukna-for-powerboat-racing

I know Ridd v RYA is about Powerboat racing, but a lot of the comments that some of us have been making about the potential liability an organiser has in the event of an incident are echoed here.

And this case also echoes the legal advice that my club received from a very senior lawyer years back, to the effect that a), exclusion clauses in SI's etc aren't worth diddly, and b) in the event of an incident the courts will be looking very hard at organisers to establish if there has been negligence, and if so penalties can be severe. 
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 9:06am
ZippyRN,
Very disappointed with timbre of your reply, "bullsh*t" I am quoting something I recently picked up from RYA first aid course, also if your phone has an emergency box when you first boot up, if you press this it takes you to a section you can enter personal details.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 9:02am
Originally posted by mozzy

... I would be horrified if my family then sued on my behalf.

Maybe so, but if you managed to get yourself Schumachered and your family were faced with the prospect of 40 years of care bills I doubt you being horrified would be an awfully big factor in their deliberations. Read about Ridd versus RYA.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 8:44am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Mozzy - the question was not about your crew suing you, or you treating them like a child ... you are of course totally right here. it’s about what the legal status is in the event that their grief stricken partner, parent or child litigates against you in the event of their death.... does the helm have some semblance of duty of care? After all, in law, are yacht crews just voluneterrr ‘employees’ of the skipper?
By my crew I meant them or whoever might represent them after their death. 

A crew chooses to sail or not. They, have a complete veto say in whether they go sailing or not on any given day. I'm not paying them to get in the boat. They are not paying me to take them out in the boat. 

My crews actually own the boats I regularly sail, but even if I owned it, then I still think a crew should be responsible for their own decision to go sailing. If they feel they aren't satisfied the boat is safe enough then they shouldn't go out. 

Conversely, as an adult I know the risks of sailing, I know the dangers of high winds and seas and when I go afloat as a crew on another boat, I do so accepting the risks. I would be horrified if my family then sued on my behalf. 

If I paid to hire a boat, I'm paying for that boat to be maintained to an appropriate standard. The company owe me that service and have a duty to provide it. If the boat isn't safe and I'm injured, me (or my family) should be compensated.  

If I'm being paid/contracted to crew on a boat, then I have a right to do that job in reasonable safety. The employers have a duty of care to ensure those carrying out work on their behalf can do so safely. 

Our boat insurance has personal injury for anyone aboard. They would be entitled to claim from that, but it wouldn't be reliant on 'blame'. 
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 8:37am
Originally posted by jeffers

Personally, I feel responsible for my own decision when I go sailing. If I don't like the conditions I turn round and go back ashore.

You can't necessarily do that. For example if you sail out to Hayling Bay on a building ebb in a strong S/SW, you'd have a very exciting time returning before the ebb slackens due to the large and sometimes breaking waves that build in the entrance. Local clubs will time racing with exactly that in mind, to get sailors back in after 2 races when the waves in the entrance have flattened. Capsizes when attempting to come home with the ebb still running in 20/25 knots are liable to be mast breaking experiences.   
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Our championship race policy has a lower limit of 5 knots across the course and an upper limit of a steady 25knots again across the course.
...

How many race teams even measure the wind speed in a consistent or proper way?
5 knots measured standing in a RIB with a handheld anemometer could be 10 knots at the masthead of an RS800.
If you've got a yacht as committee boat, it's wind instrument may be close to the 10m standard height, but it might not be accurate.
I suspect many ROs form an opinion of whether conditions are OK for a race, then look at the windometer in gusts or lulls to 'confirm' that opinion. Which is not a criticism, their judgement may well be better than some number agreed in the comfort of the clubhouse.
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 7:47am
Paramedic - you've got that one right there - a 'tool for the Race Team'. But there are other considerations. As you rightly pointed out, a true 25 kts out on the open sea is more than enough for most dinghy fleets, but that has to be taken alongside the sea state. 25kts is sailable for the front end of the better fleets but then you get...…..at one Championships that I was RO for, as the Race Team were preparing to go afloat, we were lectured to by the Class Chairman about how they could "sail in anything" and would always be out there". Having walked through the dinghy park and seen the state of some of the boats and sailors, I may have had my doubts but in this case, I just told him his views had been noted.
It never even got as far as 25kts - 20kts +/- a tad would be about right and they struggled. Then, when the tide turned and it was wind into the spring ebb, there was carnage with the class chairman one of those towed back in.
Good ROs know the water and ought to at least have a working idea of the capabilities of the fleet. You don't have to have sailed that particular boat, but you should know enough about them to be able to form a working opinion. Are they a tippy single-hander that will have problems getting downwind in a seastate, or is there a large number of older sailors who might struggle in tough and testing conditions.
Sadly, there are also some not so good ROs who either don't know, don't bother to find out  or are simply not up for the task. Host clubs, as the organizing authority, should know this, repeat complaints ought to be telling them plus you'd expect sailors from that host club to also be aware of any shortcomings.
But there are far more people who THINK that they would make a better job of being the RO than actually stick their heads above the parapet and actually do the job - which takes us back to that other question of getting people to volunteer for duties, only to have their efforts dissected on an on-line forum where these is little change of redress.

D
Dougal H
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 7:21am
Our championship race policy has a lower limit of 5 knots across the course and an upper limit of a steady 25knots again across the course.

Contrary to predictions when this was put into place we still get light sniggly races and rip roaring windy ones, we just don’t get the joke races or boat wrecking races. Proper 25 knots at sea is actually very windy for a large dingy fleet.

For the inland champs we have made the allowed band a little larger at both ends of the wind spectrum.

It remains the responsibility of the sailors to decide if it’s within their ability to go sailing and these policies are not intended to replace that responsibility. They are a tool for the race ream to help them decide whether racing is possible for the fleet as a whole.


Edited by Paramedic - 04 Sep 18 at 7:24am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 18 at 6:56am
Mozzy - the question was not about your crew suing you, or you treating them like a child ... you are of course totally right here. it’s about what the legal status is in the event that their grief stricken partner, parent or child litigates against you in the event of their death.... does the helm have some semblance of duty of care? After all, in law, are yacht crews just voluneterrr ‘employees’ of the skipper?

Edited by turnturtle - 04 Sep 18 at 6:58am
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by 423zero

If you can use your phone in an emergency, if you dial 112 instead of 999, you go straight to emergency services not through your provider and they automatically have your coordinates.


 bullsh*t! 

 999 /911 /112  on most mobile devices triggers the same  emergency call, which HAS to go through your provider ( or a provider you are roamed onto ) 
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