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    Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 1:52pm
I don't think treating either of my regular crews as children who aren't capable of making their own decisions would go down well. In return I expect them to accept the personal responsibility that goes with that and not sue me.  

Where the average person can see adults making decisions about acceptable risks in their pastimes, lawyers see a complex web of lovely fees and 'duty of care'. 


Edited by mozzy - 03 Sep 18 at 1:53pm
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The RO must have a duty of care to anyone in his employ, paid or otherwise.
This then would extend to his volunteer RIB crews etc. It must be safe for the race team.
Plus the RO must be satisfied that the umbrella of safety cover is adequate for the day& the fleet.
However entrants over 18 do so in compliance with the RRS and sign to accept this so RRS4 can't be ignored in court.
Yes the RO would be required to make his case in court but I would hope wouldn't be held liable because someone sailed who shouldn't have.
As a competitor it is hard sometimes to stand up and admit you're not up to it but as a responsible adult that is exactly what you must do. To go sailing when you know you or your kit is not up to it is then putting risk onto others by ultimately tying up rescue cover.
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Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by mozzy

   

Originally posted by A2Z

Entrants are effective paid to race.  Not normally in cash, but in points or prizes.  Therefore the entrants decision making process about whether they can safely handle the conditions is corrupted - there is a conflict of interest - hence the RO may have to remove the incentive to sail by binning the race.
This is a line of argument I could go with, to an extent. But I think it's a pretty weak link. Are adults not capable of asking "is the July series plate really worth drowning for?". 



OK - but what about a crew?  Is the helm responsible for taking the decision solely?  I'd say there's a default duty of care with the helm, race officers, organising authority etc and its a complex web of lovely fees for the right solicitors if some poor bugger from the front end cops it.

Thats why you have liability insurance in case someone gets it badly wrong and there is a lawsuit to follow.

Personally, I feel responsible for my own decision when I go sailing. If I don't like the conditions I turn round and go back ashore. 

Sure the RO/Duty officer has a part to play and if conditions really are that bad and adequate patrol cover cannot be guaranteed then the decision to can it becomes a no brainer.

Location counts for a lot too, inland on flat water you can sail in some insane conditions. I sailed the Birkett a couple fo year ago, it was insane just after the narrows but I felt I could handle it. Many others didn't and rightly went ashore wherever they could (or got picked up and towed back).

On the sea I wouldn't have had a prayer but I wouldn't have blamed the RO if I chose to launch. there is something to be said for personal responsbility.

If less experienced sailors or kids are involved it does affect the decision of course. I know some clubs (Grafham for one) have an 'experienced sailors only' flag. Quite how they police that I don't know but it does give an indication of the conditions.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by mozzy

   

Originally posted by A2Z

Entrants are effective paid to race.  Not normally in cash, but in points or prizes.  Therefore the entrants decision making process about whether they can safely handle the conditions is corrupted - there is a conflict of interest - hence the RO may have to remove the incentive to sail by binning the race.
This is a line of argument I could go with, to an extent. But I think it's a pretty weak link. Are adults not capable of asking "is the July series plate really worth drowning for?". 



OK - but what about a crew?  Is the helm responsible for taking the decision solely?  I'd say there's a default duty of care with the helm, race officers, organising authority etc and its a complex web of lovely fees for the right solicitors if some poor bugger from the front end cops it.
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When going to sea and not racing;  Mobile Phone + VHF + Sail with a buddy + let someone know what you are up to 

Wednesday PM is a good time in Salcombe = lifeboat practice session
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by 423zero

112 automatically switches on GPS.

Only if your phone supports it. As most phones are running out of date software I would not take it as a done deal.
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112 automatically switches on GPS.
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Originally posted by 423zero

If you can use your phone in an emergency, if you dial 112 instead of 999, you go straight to emergency services not through your provider and they automatically have your coordinates.

I believe 112 only gives your location if you have GPS enabled at the time and may be platform dependant. It was only from Android last time I checked.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Isn’t the clue in the name, Race Officer?  They are the nominated person responsible (and probably accountable) for the conduct of the race. If they don’t think they can achieve that whilst making the risk to entrants as low as reasonably practicable they would be neglecting their responsibilities. 
If the name was 'safety officer' then you'd have a point. 

Plus ALARP? You can but a value in business on the proportional value / cost. But only an individual can put a value on a race, so only the individual can determine what is in their view a reasonably practicable barrier.   

Originally posted by A2Z

Entrants are effective paid to race.  Not normally in cash, but in points or prizes.  Therefore the entrants decision making process about whether they can safely handle the conditions is corrupted - there is a conflict of interest - hence the RO may have to remove the incentive to sail by binning the race.
This is a line of argument I could go with, to an extent. But I think it's a pretty weak link. Are adults not capable of asking "is the July series plate really worth drowning for?". 

Originally posted by A2Z

JimC’s point is a good one.  Modern race boats are designed on the assumption that rescue cover is available.  That makes them faster and more fun but they are not seaworthy in a traditional sense.  
Are they? And if they were, how does that put the RO, who may never have seen or sailed new boat X in a better position than the owner to determine safety? 


Edited by mozzy - 03 Sep 18 at 12:25pm
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