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So Whatever happened to..

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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: So Whatever happened to..
    Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:33am
X1 and X0, in my opinion, needed to have the funds to put say 5-10 boats into places like Ranelagh, Queen Mary or Wembley. Two locations where interested parties could go to sail them, race them and cave in to temptation and buy. Good boats for restricted waters, decent leg room and carrying capacity and I would have thought, capability to cruise as well as race, ala Wayfarers and GP's. Great for many lakes, rivers and estuaries of these British Isles where I'm sure there are folks struggling to sail perfectly decent but thoroughly unsuitable assy 'skiffs' from big brands. I have no idea about the folks behind it and I'm sure raising cash for such projects is a nightmare, but I think the tangent which opened up above regarding the D-Zero and Aero* shows the need for a well-funded, commercially adept concern to be fully behind any new entry.

In the future, the success of new entries for the double-hander would do well to think about how they can acheive some kind of localised critical mass. Funding to build 15 or 20 boats as demonstrators would be hard to raise, but its difficult to see how you can get racing and buzz going with just one or two demonstrators. You quickly fall foul (or are open to) the vagaries of the handicap system. IMO there's a need to establish 'fleets' in a strong demographic, say London/Kent/Essex/Hants and 'implant' two or three groups of boats in clubs within say 20-30 miles of each other** to quickly get traction.

Lastly, for me, the choice of open sail makers with supplied hull, foils and spars, really opens up a class for quick growth by encouraging sailors and vendors to get more involved in the set up and racing of their boats without the 'open-season' of a 'deepest-wallet-wins' full development class.

The 2000 class and continuing popularity of the 200, 400, FB and 800 show there is a good market for double-handers still. Plus the MR and N12 endure and provide those with the cash a great sailing reward.

*I really like these and its great to see it so popular so fast, the modern materials and rig choices are great plus points

**so you can organise open meetings in year 1 and have people mix from different clubs, creating more of a 'class' feel quicker

Edited by getafix - 29 Aug 18 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:33am
The problem here is comparing chalk and cheese - with current production levels outstripping competition and the vast back catalogue of after market boats, can we really compare the future of the globally accepted Laser dinghy with that of an old 20thC OD - or really even the latest offering for easy access sailing from RS... (despite how successfully it seems to be taking off at the moment)?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:17am
Boats like the Enterprise, GP14 and Solo (and the OK which I sailed back then) etc were cheap to acquire and maintain in the '60s, offered good racing at all levels had, generally, vice free handling in a wide range of conditions. High performance was covered by the Merlin and 505 and inveterate tinkers could sail a Moth or N12. (Yes I know there were/are loads of other classes). The reason that, say, the Ent is still popular is that it still has those qualities and is still as good as any modern design in it's niche. You are unlikely to find a 'better' boat for racing on a small pond on Wednesday evenings.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Rupert

2 classes, same size,both originally designed by the same person within 2 years of each other, but 10 years apart in first build, one a SMOD, one a restricted development class, same speed to begin with, but one much faster now. Somehow, they have sold in similar numbers, have followed a similar path in terms of growth and gentle decline from the hayday.
Longevity doesn't appear to be connected to design philosophy, at least in this case.

Just off the top of my head, do you mean the N12 and FF?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Rupert

The old local one designs do seem to keep going. Is that a UK thing, or true the world over? Is the Laser the world's local one designs?

They certainly seem to keep going at a higher rate in the UK than elsewhere, where they seem to be fairly rare, but as Jim notes, the PY figures show that many of the UK ones have gone. There seems to be a bit of a dichotomy in the UK- there's fairly rapid turnover in some ways, but also ageless local classes. 

From what I can see, other countries have always been more into ODs that are widespread (ie popular across a region, country or internationally rather than just native to one port) and they generally have less OD turnover. Out of the 10 most popular classes in Germany, five are one designs that are 50+ years old, and the remainder are Lasers and the Contender which are not new designs by any means. One of the earliest ODs in Australia remains arguably the top national high-performance dinghy, and its basic hull and foil lines are now almost 90 years old. Most of the other popular classes are elderly.

The USA had huge numbers of local ODs in the 1800s that soon died out but today most of the popular classes are one designs that are 70+ years old, apart from the "new" Lasers and 420.

Given the fact that so many of the popular ODs are still with us at 50 to 100 years of age, and the stranglehold that such classes hold on the top of the popularity rankings, it appears that there's a fair bit of evidence that major OD classes can be almost immortal.



Edited by Chris 249 - 29 Aug 18 at 9:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 9:26am
there are plenty of one designs still being raced locally that will not feature in PY lists, most are 'historic' i.e. pre 50's or older.
Loch Long huge fleet at Aldeburgh (40+boats?) and in scotland, Dragonfly OD (waldringfiled and Ireland), lapwing Dinghy, XODs (most at 4 clubs on south coast), Victory OD (Portsmouth & Gibraltor), Burnham OD, Corinthian OD all still fleet racing.
At some point most clubs instigated building dinghies to sell to members, or members approached local builders to suit their race area / racing style (think some were designed as "suitable for racing and family cruising at sea"!).
Some /lots of these still exist in local bubbles, big one design fleets in what some would call antiques. Just goes to show that it isn't about what you sit on, how fast your boat goes compared to a moth / windsurfer, it's about who you are racing...

Edited by fudheid - 29 Aug 18 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 8:37am
Originally posted by JimC

 

There are 3 OD classes on that list I would not be surprised to see fall off the list in the next few years, but the development classes look fairly safe, but it could be argued that's because its so very hard to found one. You could also argue that one of the development classes died out a number of years ago, and was replaced by its Australian equivalent.


Assume that you are refering to the International Moth there Jim ;-) I can feel some serious thread drift coming
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Rupert

The old local one designs do seem to keep going.

I don't know about that Rupert. Look how many there *used* to be. The early PY lists are full of them.

I think you're right to say that classes may strike a niche and carry on there long after they are gone elsewhere, but they aren't necessarily local one designs. Of course they may *become* local one designs!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 8:15am
The old local one designs do seem to keep going. Is that a UK thing, or true the world over? Is the Laser the world's local one designs?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 7:19am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by ttc546

I suspect that most, if not all, one design dinghies have a shelf life.

It's very commonly held belief but utterly untrue,

Now steady on there Chris.

There are an exceptional few classes that seem to last indefinitely, but they are precious few. There are 127 classes in my 1958 PY list, and 97 in my current one.

There are 19 classes that appear in both lists. Of those 4 could be characterised as development classes, 3 as basically one design hulls with a lot of freedom esp in internal layout, 11 as one designs, and one as bordering on SMOD.

There are 3 OD classes on that list I would not be surprised to see fall off the list in the next few years, but the development classes look fairly safe, but it could be argued that's because its so very hard to found one. You could also argue that one of the development classes died out a number of years ago, and was replaced by its Australian equivalent.

Most classes do have a shelf life, sometimes short, sometimes very long, and really, would you expect it to be any different?

You're quite correct. It's interesting, though, to see the quite remarkable survival rate of the early widespread one designs. Considering how often people say they must and do die, as almost a matter of natural evolution, there seems to be something significant about the survival of so many ancient classes, and what that could mean for the Laser.
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