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blueboy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

. Comments along the lines of "There's big constituency who just don't like Lasers" are often misleading, for whilst there may be a sizeable number here in the UK that would rather sail something else - and do - you do not have to travel far from these shores to get a very different perspective. 

Or you could travel a bit further and get yet another one. One of the moving forces in organising the NA Laser class in former years is now sailing an Aero. 
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by sandgrounder

To claim that the Laser is likely to be displaced anytime soon is specious at best.
Sure, RS have done a great job selling 1,700 boats over the 5 seasons since inception, an average of 340 boats per year, with production spiking some time back.

Firstly, I don't think anyone is making that claim.

Secondly, where do you get the figure of 1,700? AFAIK it is closer to 2,700.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog


]Currently I'm re-writing Hooked On, the book telling the story of the International Contender. I


How's that going?

'Once upon a time they decided to build a really heavy boat with added lead, a big centreboard and a boom so low a mouse would have trouble tacking it, but once it did, it went upwind like a train, providing there's a great tall lump of something or other hanging off a wire attached near the top of the mast.

It has a big floppy old sail and a long stick to wiggle.'

The End.

Edited by iGRF - 28 Aug 18 at 1:51pm
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 1:10pm
There have been challengers for the Laser since the very early days of the class, some of which were actually very good boats in their own right - boats that under other circumstances would have been good candidates for the position the Laser occupies today. Some were even better than the Laser but for a variety of often complex and multi-faceted reasons, the success story that was the Laser just carried on growing. Comments along the lines of "There's big constituency who just don't like Lasers" are often misleading, for whilst there may be a sizeable number here in the UK that would rather sail something else - and do - you do not have to travel far from these shores to get a very different perspective. Those of us who are more advanced in years can remember what the single handed scene was like before the laser; no wonder we loved it so much and bought them in such big numbers, for the boat was simply better than the available alternatives 'at that time'. Move away from the major sail racing nations and the choice is the Laser - or some lumpen local class that is going nowhere. 

Would WS really bite the bullet and put the skids under the Laser. If the Trials go ahead ( which in itself is a BIG if) but if they do....then yes, it could happen, after all, stranger things have gone on in the world of the IYRU/ISAF and now WS Committee rooms. Equally, you could get the bizarre situation where the Trials go ahead, a new boat is chosen, only for the Laser to stay in place,

Currently I'm re-writing Hooked On, the book telling the story of the International Contender. In the decade since I wrote the first edition, a lot more in the way of detail has come my way. Suffice to say that back in 1968, after the third and final set of Trials had seen the Contender top of the pack, the IYRU didn't just offer the boat full international status, but a place at the 1972, 76 and 80 Olympics. So there precedents are there...… let's wait and see!

Dougal/Y&Y and All at Sea.  


Edited by Dougaldog - 28 Aug 18 at 1:11pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 12:15pm
+1 and thanks for the figures, my estimate of 4to5 boats per week was quite close.
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Posts: 220 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:44am
To claim that the Laser is likely to be displaced anytime soon is specious at best.
Sure, RS have done a great job selling 1,700 boats over the 5 seasons since inception, an average of 340 boats per year, with production spiking some time back.
However, Laser maintain sales of 3,000 units per year with one of the builders presently increasing production from 30/week to 50/week, in order to satisfy current demand.
Additionally, price point is over 25% lower for the Laser.
If we consider events, the recent Aero Worlds were a really great achievement with 207 boats across the 3 classes, though with 80% UK entries.
At the same time the Laser Worlds in Aarhus had 284 entries, and just last week at the Laser Radial Youth Worlds (U19) there were 365 entries.
Next month the Laser Masters Worlds in Ireland has 304 pre-entries from 25 countries.
Once you leave these shores the numbers become massively skewed towards the Laser, that's simply the way it is, with the 2018 Aero North American Championship managing just 21 boats across the 3 fleets.
The Laser being displaced is not going to happen within the lifetime of the average UK dinghy sailor, it simply has too much momentum.

Edited by sandgrounder - 28 Aug 18 at 12:02pm
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:24am
Originally posted by RS400atC

I don't disagree with what Mike says, but how many USD was £3200 in 1970 or whenever it was the Laser was launched? How many hours basic wage is it, how many pints of beer?
The 'value' in buying a Laser has also changed, originally you were buying a simple boat, now it's value is largely in the worldwide racing scene.
Sure Laser make money out of selling boats, but ISTM that over the years many people have come along trying to do it better and cheaper and failed to grab much of the market.But maybe 'failed' is the wrong word in many cases. Is the Byte (e.g.) a failure because it didn't make the Radial obsolete, or was it a success, making a few quid, providing a choice and all that?

But all products have a lifecycle, the laser has already had a long one, and it ain't dead yet.
The 'eros might turn out to have shorter product lives. Manufacturing developes all the time. Five years' time, people will be thinking we could do this lighter/cheaper/better?
Or the market might simply want something different?

The Aero 7 in real terms sells at twice the 1970’s price of the Laser.

OK the Laser has been improved, better tiller, controls and more recently the sail, but I don’t see these “improvements” costing or being worth the extra £3k.

I have owned at least 6 Lasers over the years and as many Solo’s in recent years, so I come to this with a little personal experience.  I am absolutely sure that the Solo would not have sold 1000 boats in 10 years had the Laser been at its original (real) price points.

The Laser had great appeal because of the incredibly low cost of ownership largely due to a low buy in price, and very good residual values.  This was so good that many could consider owning a Laser as an impulse purchase.

At my club in the early eighties, we would group buy 10+ Lasers every year, and sell the old boats on for less than the price of a sail ... no brainier.

I don’t think that such a virtuous position exists today.
Happily living in the past
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 11:02am
I don't disagree with what Mike says, but how many USD was £3200 in 1970 or whenever it was the Laser was launched? How many hours basic wage is it, how many pints of beer?
The 'value' in buying a Laser has also changed, originally you were buying a simple boat, now it's value is largely in the worldwide racing scene.
Sure Laser make money out of selling boats, but ISTM that over the years many people have come along trying to do it better and cheaper and failed to grab much of the market.But maybe 'failed' is the wrong word in many cases. Is the Byte (e.g.) a failure because it didn't make the Radial obsolete, or was it a success, making a few quid, providing a choice and all that?

But all products have a lifecycle, the laser has already had a long one, and it ain't dead yet.
The 'eros might turn out to have shorter product lives. Manufacturing developes all the time. Five years' time, people will be thinking we could do this lighter/cheaper/better?
Or the market might simply want something different?
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 10:58am
I'm not certain Laser would be selling many more new boats with a lower price. There's big constituency who just don't like Lasers. Those who like Lasers won't need to think that much about their choice whereas (say) Solo or Aero sailors are unlikely to consider a cheaper Laser.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 18 at 10:06am

.....no boat will get the traction that the Laser ever achieved is that when it was launched it retailed at the equivalent of £ 3,200 in today’s money

And that is the current L@ser problem in a nutshell...  It WAS the equivalent of GBP 3,200 in today’s money but it is not exactly near that today. 

Many decades have passed and most regular products in most markets, certainly ones that barely change in particular, tend to get less expensive .....not so with this one that has evolved to become the classical 'cash-cow' to its owners who appear to pursue maximum return whatever .... even if the approach allows enough space for the odd viable challenge.  Risky.   Nothing wrong with the cash-cow approach in itself in my book but you have to be adaptable in changing circumstances.

The Aero is doing fantastically well, is properly established already, is well funded and managed and is rapidly looking to be to be a viable long term challenge.  It is now probably too late for the L@ser owners to react without some real damage to its apparent long term cash-cow policy.  (Rule 101 - never underestimate competitors or really believe your own propaganda)......  Market leadership really can lead to eventual market replacement if you don't take real care.  The consequences of not reacting appropriately when challenged in this position can be terminal. 

It may not be at that point in all geographical markets yet of course and there might be other real challengers out there we don't even know about yet ..... time will tell.  L@ser might even eventually react – who knows !  Ultimately markets are dynamic, little can even be partially 'forever' without recognising and responding to challenges in good time. 
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