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Fatboi View Drop Down
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Arms Race
    Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:41am

"Laser Standard MKII training sail. Same cut, no class button, lighter cloth, big savings.

There are three Laser sails, only ONE of which is currently legal for all competitions.
1. Class legal - Legal for all National & International competitions.
2. Class Compliant - Not Class legal, made from the same cloth and to the same specification as the class legal version but without ILCA button so are not legal for any competitions at present.
3. Training Sail - Not Class legal, made from lighter cloth to keep the cost down, again without the class legal button."



I guess option 2 cuts some royalties out as well as the costs of measuring the sail. Only thing I can think of to reduce the price... 
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:44am
Reduce the price ffs they cost 25 bucks to make the rest is all margin and the difference between those three options? Probably $5 if that, it's a total con, so no, I won't be protesting the poor fools for trying to get a better sail for a lot less money as long as it's there or there about size wise.

My gripe isn't that, my gripe is with those that would artificially slow the handicap when in truth the reverse is the case and that extends to the 'damned united'(RYA) as well with their ridiculous 'confidence' function on their software. which despite the bloody things winning practically everything this season, it still recommends a slower handicap than 1098 when they've been capable of winning in their condition since 1078.

Edited by iGRF - 05 Jun 18 at 10:50am
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Fatboi View Drop Down
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:48am
I agree, but the owner of Laser doesn't care about the sport of sailing, he just wants to make £££. 

Maybe why WS want a review of the monopoly on the class.??
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Fatboi

"Laser Standard MKII training sail. Same cut, no class button, lighter cloth, big savings.

There are three Laser sails, only ONE of which is currently legal for all competitions.
1. Class legal - Legal for all National & International competitions.
2. Class Compliant - Not Class legal, made from the same cloth and to the same specification as the class legal version but without ILCA button so are not legal for any competitions at present.
3. Training Sail - Not Class legal, made from lighter cloth to keep the cost down, again without the class legal button."



I guess option 2 cuts some royalties out as well as the costs of measuring the sail. Only thing I can think of to reduce the price... 


The price difference between 1 and 2 if far more than the royalty value that LP have to pay ILCA. I seems to recall it came out at something like around £20/sail (back when i was bothered about it anyway).
Paul
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Cirrus

.... certainly in my experience of py sailors is that a good percentage of them have an over inflated sense of ability, that or they've confused py racing with personal handicap racing for some inexplicable reason.

Certainly in my experience of (solely) fleet sailors is that a good percentage of them have an over inflated sense of ability, or they have confused fleet racing in a (sometimes today very average) fleet and class propoganda as evidence of their own underlying ability for some inexplicable reason.

(The truth is more likely to be somewhere between these two these days surely  !! Wink)

That sense is usually quelled after an event or two when pecking order is reinforced, they either change their mindset and carry on, leave the class events alone or the class entirely.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Cirrus

.... certainly in my experience of py sailors is that a good percentage of them have an over inflated sense of ability, that or they've confused py racing with personal handicap racing for some inexplicable reason.

Certainly in my experience of (solely) fleet sailors is that a good percentage of them have an over inflated sense of ability, or they have confused fleet racing in a (sometimes today very average) fleet and class propoganda as evidence of their own underlying ability for some inexplicable reason.

(The truth is more likely to be somewhere between these two these days surely  !! Wink)

That sense is usually quelled after an event or two when pecking order is reinforced, they either change their mindset and carry on, leave the class events alone or the class entirely.

Does depend on the event and usual conditions for said sailor.

For example, I know that at the nats on the sea I will likely be nearer the back than the front as i dont sail in waves much. Change to the inlands I will likely be closer to the front. Come to my home club open I am in contention for the win.

The best sailors travel and practicse in all conditions and it shows.
Paul
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 11:20am
ain't that the truth.... scan down to results:
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by DiscoBall

 

I wonder if the Laser class has actually been overcautious - if anything perception (and a certain amount of reality) that it is clunkier and more dated has fuelled the rise of the various new singlehanders. Whether these sailors would balance out those lost to the class through changes I don;t know. 

I would say so yes... personally I would like to see the rudder improved a bit.

I'm always interested by this one... what needs to be improved about the rudder and what practical differences would it make?

AIUI - a more vertical blade would reduce the weather helm.  I know this can be corrected with better heel control, but 95% of laser sailors still sail them on their ear in a blow, so a progressive change to make them feel a bit nicer and cleaner would be welcome in my book.  

I found the dagger rudder on the D-Zero very well balanced - would something similar not improve the feel of the Laser?  I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case.  

Ideally you'd sail the boat totally flat and with the rig set up so that weather helm is minimal.  Given that the rudder is so small anyway, if you made the blade more vertical you'd reduce the feedback coming through it even more which would make it harder for the sailor to feel when the boat isn't in balance.

So the boat might feel nicer when it's being sailed badly, but it would also be harder to sail it better because you'd lose feedback from the rudder.

I think with that in mind it would probably give the better sailors an advantage over the not so good ones, which would be the opposite to what's intended.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by Rupert

Sounds like a quality improvement giving longer life to a part before degradation, as with the new sail. Surely that should be applauded by all those who previously complained about how things didn't last, rather than whinging about how it has become an arms race?

I think it is exactly like that for national/international level sailors - I've not had to buy another top section for over a year now and I'd usually get through 2-3 in that time so we're nearly at the break even point.  And the carbon one still looks like it's got at least twice that life left in it.

The only bad things said about them are for the first batch/attempt which all cracked within a couple of weeks at the bottom plug, but that's all been resolved (eventually... like getting blood from a stone as you might expect from LPE).   

We now need the same thing to happen for the radial bottom section, because they typically last less than a single windy day before bending, and they're more expensive.



The point is, the alloy top mast is not really fit for purpose if it bends permanently (becoming out of class) in 'normal use'.
So the composite one is a 'good thing'.
The problem is that the stronger top section will enable people to bend and break the lower section more readily. So that will need an upgrade.
Which will enable people to use more kicker in more wind, which will have a predictable effect on the sail and inevitably shorten the life of the boom.

The bend characteristics of the composite top section are as good as identical to the aluminium one up to the point where it deforms.  Force required for a given amount of deflection is basically the same (according to my boat park/weight hanging measurements).  

You don't need to use more kicker to bend the mast the same amount, but what does change is that the force from the same "amount" of kicker decreases over time as the aluminium section takes on a permanent bend.  

Given that we've always been pulling the kicker on to the point where you can hardly get under the boom and the mainsheet blocks are scraping on the deck I don't think much is really going to change with the amount of kicker used.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

"Laser Standard MKII training sail. Same cut, no class button, lighter cloth, big savings.

There are three Laser sails, only ONE of which is currently legal for all competitions.
1. Class legal - Legal for all National & International competitions.
2. Class Compliant - Not Class legal, made from the same cloth and to the same specification as the class legal version but without ILCA button so are not legal for any competitions at present.
3. Training Sail - Not Class legal, made from lighter cloth to keep the cost down, again without the class legal button."



I guess option 2 cuts some royalties out as well as the costs of measuring the sail. Only thing I can think of to reduce the price... 


The royalties paid to ILCA for the button per sail are miniscule... something in the scale of a fiver. LPE are spreading complete b**locks about it so that they don't look so bad.
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