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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 9:39am
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by Rupert

Sounds like a quality improvement giving longer life to a part before degradation, as with the new sail. Surely that should be applauded by all those who previously complained about how things didn't last, rather than whinging about how it has become an arms race?

I think it is exactly like that for national/international level sailors - I've not had to buy another top section for over a year now and I'd usually get through 2-3 in that time so we're nearly at the break even point.  And the carbon one still looks like it's got at least twice that life left in it.

The only bad things said about them are for the first batch/attempt which all cracked within a couple of weeks at the bottom plug, but that's all been resolved (eventually... like getting blood from a stone as you might expect from LPE).   

We now need the same thing to happen for the radial bottom section, because they typically last less than a single windy day before bending, and they're more expensive.



The point is, the alloy top mast is not really fit for purpose if it bends permanently (becoming out of class) in 'normal use'.
So the composite one is a 'good thing'.
The problem is that the stronger top section will enable people to bend and break the lower section more readily. So that will need an upgrade.
Which will enable people to use more kicker in more wind, which will have a predictable effect on the sail and inevitably shorten the life of the boom.
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 9:43am
I think it stems from the slightly bizarre idea that if lots of classes are represented at the top of the results, or if the spread of elapsed times is narrow, then somehow this 'proves' that the handicaps are fair. Depite the fairly likely scenario that classes don't actually consist of identical spreads of ability and some classes have better top sailors than others.

This popped up most recently on the interview with Andy Rice on the front page, but it's a constant theme with all handicap racing, measured or empirical.

Frank Bethwaite points it out in HPS2 - the belief throughout much of the sport is that after a few years all helms sail more or less as well as anyone else, hence no need to actually practice, as not winning must be down to kit or a dodgy handicap.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 9:45am
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by DiscoBall

 

I wonder if the Laser class has actually been overcautious - if anything perception (and a certain amount of reality) that it is clunkier and more dated has fuelled the rise of the various new singlehanders. Whether these sailors would balance out those lost to the class through changes I don;t know. 

I would say so yes... personally I would like to see the rudder improved a bit.

I'm always interested by this one... what needs to be improved about the rudder and what practical differences would it make?

AIUI - a more vertical blade would reduce the weather helm.  I know this can be corrected with better heel control, but 95% of laser sailors still sail them on their ear in a blow, so a progressive change to make them feel a bit nicer and cleaner would be welcome in my book.  

I found the dagger rudder on the D-Zero very well balanced - would something similar not improve the feel of the Laser?  I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case.  
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by RS400atC


But all Laser(oid) sails age quickly compared with many other boats, because they get dragged around the floor rigging and de-rigging, and left flapping because you can't drop the sail.


Yes, there's a strange culture within the class that treats the sails very badly and then complains about them having a short life. A well-kept one is a different story. It's not hard to have the sail almost completely rigged (vang, outhaul, boom all on) and then leave it lying on the grass until the boat is at the water's edge and you're fully kitted up,.....

I've noticed the strange culture among relatively serious Laser sailors that they don't think about their sails because they will have another one in a couple of months. The impressionable yoof copy this behaviour slavishly. Maybe they're coached in such actions?

Where I sail my laser, the nearest area of grass is a ten minute walk from the slipway. One of the reasons we stick with lasers is that we store them on a rack.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:07am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

.....

I'm always interested by this one... what needs to be improved about the rudder and what practical differences would it make?

AIUI - a more vertical blade would reduce the weather helm.  I know this can be corrected with better heel control, but 95% of laser sailors still sail them on their ear in a blow, so a progressive change to make them feel a bit nicer and cleaner would be welcome in my book.  

I found the dagger rudder on the D-Zero very well balanced - would something similar not improve the feel of the Laser?  I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case.  

Making the rudder more vertical would not change the weather helm as such, just reduce the force on the tiller.
As the force on the tiller is tiny compared with the force on the sheet, it's not a big gain in my book. It's not my tiller hand that gets tired.
It would also make the rudder more efficient, avoiding flow down the blade.
The best change to the rudder would be to allow a decent wing nut so you could adjust the friction between the blade and the stock without using two spanners. You've got to hand it to their marketing boys, flogging such a nasty 'upgrade' as the megabolt.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:10am
Originally posted by bustinben

 

The anecdote about Mark Bethwaite using the same sail for 3 world championships could be a little misleading...  It most likely means that he saved the sail exclusively for those events, so at the end it had 3 weeks use not 3 years.  If the first two events weren't solidly windy, that's about the competitive life of a sail for an elite laser sailor that everyone understands.

Until a sail is completely wrecked it won't be the limiting factor for your average club sailor however, that's far more likely to be the time on the water/training.

I can't speak for the standard rig (I sail the radial) when it comes to the new top section - but there is definitely a performance difference in the radial.  Your ability to engage a high mode with less kicker/deeper sail when sailing in 14kts+ is preserved, whereas with the aluminium one it's not as the mast takes on a permanent bend very quickly and doesn't straighten back up again.  Your high mode vs a boat with an ally section in these conditions is higher. (P.S Usual caveats about are you hiking hard enough, is your steering accurate etc etc, if these things aren't right of course it doesn't make a difference)

The weight is basically the same, and the bend characteristics are as well, the only difference is that it won't get bent and in *some* conditions, this is a useful thing.

The point you raise about Mark's sail is perfectly reasonable. However, on the Improper Course piece I was referring to he also says " I joke that I keep it in cryogenic storage between Worlds, and that is half true!  Certainly I always feel very confident with it.  I used that tried and trusted Mark I on the day before the practice race and was happy enough with my speed."

Given the fact that Mark specifically says it's "half true" that he stores the sail, it seems it's also half not true - he must use it for other events or for training. Brett Bayer says that a sail has 30 sessions at top level. Eons ago, the world champ (Stu Wallace) did 12 regattas on one sail in his European campaign.  So yes, a Laser sail for a world champion may have 30 days of top level life. However, as you say that's a season or two for lots of serious sailors, and the common whine that every Dick or Harry "needs a new sail every regatta" is way off. Their sail isn't what's holding them back.

Interesting info about the new topmast on the Radial, which is my usual rig; thanks. As you say, there's no real difference for the typical club level sailor. 
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 05 Jun 18 at 10:27am
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:13am
That's strange, because I can tell immediately with my EPS rudder if it aint fully vertical, by the illusory weather helm feel.

Other factual inaccuracy by my starchy chum.. Our club has been submitting handicap results ever since I became commodore two or three years back when Bas Edmonds visited us and promised new motorways that were never built.

The other question that remains un answered the question of the red buttoned price differential, what is that about?

Meanwhile carry on I'm in the middle of a new kite launch so can't really keep up for a couple of days.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:25am
I'm one of those who'd love to see some performance-neutral upgrades that could be added on. Some sort of fairing to stop the mainsheet catching, perhaps some foam pads to make hiking more comfortable, chamfered cockpit corners, that sort of stuff.

Ian Bruce told me that Bruce Kirby actually designed the rudder to have more rake than it actually has; Ian took some of the rake out to take the weight from the tiller.  IMHO we could take it further. I once broke the pivot bolt which allowed the rudder to come upright and the boat felt much better; very light and delicate like a Tasar or Int Canoe. Shifting the pivot point to take more rake out would be a dead cheap way to make the boat feel better.

The whole sport has just two "universal" classes -  the Opti and the Laser. The Laser class has 10,000 paid up members and there must be several times as many keen racers who are not class members. We are not going to replace that critical mass with another class in the foreseeable future. To try to destroy the only common class between all of the sailing cultures around the world seems to be incredibly destructive. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 05 Jun 18 at 10:28am
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Chris 249

I once broke the pivot bolt which allowed the rudder to come upright and the boat felt much better; very light and delicate like a Tasar or Int Canoe. Shifting the pivot point to take more rake out would be a dead cheap way to make the boat feel better.

interesting.... so for regatta level racing you'd have a viable upgrade to at the very least a Mk 2 stock (encouraging a bit of spend at the manufacturer needs to be encouraged a bit, otherwise they eventually lose support for their commercially unviable classes).  I'd imagine the tiller flushing would need to stay the same spec and shape.    Whereas the club level guys who don't mind the odd replica sail boosting local numbers could have a few beers and get their hacksaws out on a otherwise too windy/too light day?  

Obviously there are checks and balances at play, and not something that would happen overnight... but a potential improvement for zero cost improvement for "local sailors' who are probably not even CA members anyway.    

Clap Clap Clap 




Edited by turnturtle - 05 Jun 18 at 10:36am
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 10:38am
Originally posted by iGRF



Other factual inaccuracy by my starchy chum.. Our club has been submitting handicap results ever since I became commodore two or three years back when Bas Edmonds visited us and promised new motorways that were never built.

noted - well done.  Now adjust locally for those out of class with illegal sails, if you feel it's in the overall interests of the racing membership.
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