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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by jeffers

but but but...the new carbon top section doesn't make any difference guv' and its the same weight and stiffness honest guv' same with the new sail...it is not faster than the old one guv' trust me....

Well, its not particularly hard to get a carbon/glass Laser topmast the same weight and stiffness as an alloy one. You start by getting the stiffness right, which isn't too hard as its an untapered tube, and then you add layers of pretty much non functional glass 'til its the right weight.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 5:41pm
Are any of these Laser performance boosts really any bigger than changing a year-old RS400 jib for a new one?
I don't think so.
But all Laser(oid) sails age quickly compared with many other boats, because they get dragged around the floor rigging and de-rigging, and left flapping because you can't drop the sail.
And let's face it, even the best of the replicas seem to be made of low tech cloth which won't  hold it's shape as a modern cloth might.
Hence the latest 'cheat' sail is likely a tad quicker than the previous one, which has now been used a bit.
Having a Laser sub-fleet where people are all keen and using newish sails will raise their performance, because boat-on-on boat matched racing gives you instant feedback and improves your racing. People who paid out their pocket money on new sails will also be those who are motivated to turn up and try harder.
If you get three or four of any reasonable class in a PY fleet, they tend to do quite well.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 7:01pm
Mr RS400's post above makes more sense than an arms race, unless of course buying new kit in any class is an arms race. Spending money on kit, not using that 20 year old jib, how dare you?

You could say I started an arms race in the Minisail fleet. I bought 3 new sails in 4 years. 2 I sold to others in the fleet, one with a boat attached. I have recently bought another, and various others have been seen around the place, by a couple of different makers. Hopefully Ian Morgan has been able to feed his family for a few days off the proceeds.

All these sails are a step change faster than the dish rags the boats used to sail with. My handicap appears to have dropped because of this, though it appears others have been more lucky! Should I have asked Ian to make the sail from an old bedsheet to keep things fair?

Of course, we don't have an issue with replica sails, as sail making is open. But nor do Lasers, as all that needs to be done is a protest made,and the club will need to sort out it's sailing instructions to clarify the situation concerning boats that look like Lasers but aren't.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 7:37pm
The 200's new sails aren't any quicker. Or, at least aren't any quicker than a old set with same wear. At the time I was very vocal about keeping the actual difference in performance and the perceived performance as close as possible. I think the class did a very good job of this. 

There are new 200 hulls too. Identical on the underside, but the topside has very minor changes for aesthetics and durability. I think they might be stiffer in the long run, and possibly a fraction quicker, but nothing you'd notice in a club race. 

I think all one-designs, if they want to stay relevant have to make changes. A lot are forced upon them. But a lot of thought needs to be made about why the changes are being made and how they tally with classes niche.

Ironically, the 200 handicap has gone from 1106 to 1048 at HISC over the years I've been sailing there. Which makes the discussion of new sail fabric undermining one design, whilst lauding the handicap system quite laughable. I don't mind, whether I'm a minute further ahead or behind in a handicap race won't change my enjoyment of it. 
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 8:30pm
HISC numbers are their own little island though.
Only to be discussed in the context of other HISC numbers.
What do you actually race against, and what's their HISC number?
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And allow freedom of toestrap fittings, centre toestraps only work for tall people.....


That made me smile as I always thought the opposite :)

Central toe strap is too close to the sides, so I have to jam my toes under the plastic strip on the leeward side to be able to hike.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And allow freedom of toestrap fittings, centre toestraps only work for tall people.....


That made me smile as I always thought the opposite :)

Central toe strap is too close to the sides, so I have to jam my toes under the plastic strip on the leeward side to be able to hike.

Don't be silly.........
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

HISC numbers are their own little island though.
Only to be discussed in the context of other HISC numbers.
What do you actually race against, and what's their HISC number?


Oh I'm not arguing it's less fair. It's all relative, other have come down to (but not by as much, barng the moth). My point was more about how arbitrary the numbers are, but that shouldn't make it less fun if you appreciate handicap racing for what it is.  
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


But all Laser(oid) sails age quickly compared with many other boats, because they get dragged around the floor rigging and de-rigging, and left flapping because you can't drop the sail.


Yes, there's a strange culture within the class that treats the sails very badly and then complains about them having a short life. A well-kept one is a different story. It's not hard to have the sail almost completely rigged (vang, outhaul, boom all on) and then leave it lying on the grass until the boat is at the water's edge and you're fully kitted up, so the sail is only flapping while the rig is dropped in, the mainsheet run, and the boat wheeled into the water. You can then gently reach around between races instead of leaving the sail to flog. Other guys put the sail up then spend an hour talking, getting dressed and rigging, then sit around with the sail flapping between races, and then wonder why the sail ages.

Mark Bethwaite, who is an extremely technical sailor (4th in the FDs at the Olympics IIRC, world champ in J/24s and Solings when they were at their peak, and one of Julian's main influences) is also very wealthy - yet he used the same Laser sail to win three world Masters titles. Other world champs have had similar experiences. 

On the Improper Course blogspot there's pieces from several Masters world champs with notes about the new sail and/or mast, including two Olympic coaches and one ex-Olympian. Only one of them seems to feel that the new sail and mast is quicker, and he won without it.

It's odd that world class sailors prove that you can win at world level with an "old" sail and that the differences in performance are minute (or non existent) and yet the guy who finishes mid pack at the club is convinced he's losing because of having a sail that may have done fewer races, or because the other guy has a new mast.

One wonders how much of the reason people are mired in mid pack is because they blame the gear rather than the way they use it.

PS - while google for info on the new mast I came across several old references about the "super fast Aussie foils" from a while back. The amusing thing is that several US guys who used charter boats in the Masters Worlds out here a while back, including one world champ, actually complained about the "poor quality" of the same foils that some people were calling "super fast".


Edited by Chris 249 - 04 Jun 18 at 11:19pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And allow freedom of toestrap fittings, centre toestraps only work for tall people.....


[/QUOTE]

I never realised I was tall before!  I'm 5ft 7in with short legs and the centre strap works for me. 
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