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    Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 11:24am
iGRF, boats will never be equal, some one will always look after there's better. 

Yet has the opportunity to alter (development) or maintain (strict one design) in the same manor. It's part of the competition. The rules of various classes define how much the game is about boat set-up and design. Pick a class that suits.

My feeling is this: the inequalities in class racing are things you have have control over. The inequalities in handicap racing are more often things you have no control over. So it's not that people are not thinking about it, it's that people are recognising it for what it is, and leaving it there.


Edited by mozzy - 04 Jun 18 at 11:47am
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by iGRF

OK following that, I'm going into full rant now.
You say class racing is the only true fair way to race, yet here on this very thread you have inequities galore, multiple sail types multiple mast types.


The Laser is sufficient enough to provide cost effective proper club racing across the world for many, many happy sailors.  For some people sailing them they fully acknowledge there are better, nicer, insert superlative of your choice alternatives to that boat, but that would either change who they are racing against or the format under which that racing takes place.  This isn’t enough to make the swap worth it, or permanent, given Laser sailors who gravitate away may well come back to them again in the future.

You say “common sense” like it doesn’t exist in sailing, however it seems to me that it’s the Laser sailors with the common sense here.  They acknowledge the discrepencies in the after-market parts debate and have worked out suitable, and localised, participation conditions to accommodate it.  You wouldn’t go to the Laser Masters Nationals with an MSB sail, but you might run a Wednesday night beer league with a few to keep the old boats out of the nettles.  

There are another group of sailors who have common sense - they sail what they want and they accept handicap racing for what it is rather than decrying it like there’s some conspiracy against them.  They probably also get their ‘class racing’ fix from a few open meetings and regattas a year too.  
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 12:24pm

Well said, mozzy and TT.

As TT says, many of us know the Laser is not perfect. The issue is that there is no foreseeable way that it can be replaced in its role. Most people in the world of sailing cannot afford a new boat. Other countries do not have the UK's unique sailing scene and geography and cannot bring in new classes in the same way. 

I think Steve Clark reckons that every time people have to 'upgrade' their boat, 25% of them drop out of the sport. There would then be a knock-on effect because quite a few fleets would lose their critical mass.

Windsurfing tried the concept of changing classes regularly, and it collapsed. Cat sailors change classes a lot, and in some places cat sailing has collapsed to the point where they are about (IIRC) 6% or less of small racing boats, and dropping. Old classes often do NOT die and changing classes all the time does NOT make a discipline of our sport more popular, so why encourage it?

The funny thing is that many people who claim to be innovative and flexible thinkers are actually rigidly stuck with a fixed conviction that new classes are the way forward. They can't actually get their minds around the fact that sticking with some of the old classes could be better. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 04 Jun 18 at 12:42pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 1:04pm
Right now, as the title of the thread says, in my world the biggest Arms race comes from the Laserati trying to out chequebook each other, with new sails new other bits (no idea the rope and trimming systems, but they're all swapping stuff about trying to find the holy grail, then out of the blue another sail turns up and he's out front, no ones bought the new carbon top, but it's only a matter of time and they are getting faster and faster. Meanwhile and I've no idea how the 'confidence' thing is supposed to work, but given they're already winning everything I had a chat with the lass that submits the numbers to the 'damned united' and she is totally bemused because all that comes back is an even slower number, go figure that one.

The Laser has it's place, no question and if ever my 'Custom sailboats south east' company ever comes to fruition I'll be the first to buy up hulls and build the Laser GTR, but as it stands it simply cannot claim to be a One Design, sorry, not any more. Yes it's a great cheap entry into our sport, but not the way things have evolved at our place.

Edited by iGRF - 04 Jun 18 at 1:04pm
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 1:24pm
What is your vision for your Laser GTR ?
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 1:25pm
If you go and do any events, then you have to sail with official supplied kit that is built to the tolerances set out in the class rules. If your club lets people sail with replica kit, then they are the ones making it not one design, not the class or laser.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by 423zero

What is your vision for your Laser GTR ?


I'd take the hull, add carbon centreboard, new carbon rudder assembly including blade. Use a sail and rig I designed for my race board which although 8.5 now having cut it down, it depowers really well and wouldn't need the kicker as much so centre sheeting would be possible and the carbon mast would transform the feel.
Id use a short carbon boom with over hung clew on a full lower battened clew plate.

It would be that quick they'd probably give it a 1200 yardstick
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by iGRF

no ones bought the new carbon top,

but but but...the new carbon top section doesn't make any difference guv' and its the same weight and stiffness honest guv' same with the new sail...it is not faster than the old one guv' trust me....
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 2:33pm
remove corners on sides of cockpit too.
extended rudder too ?
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by iGRF

no ones bought the new carbon top,

but but but...the new carbon top section doesn't make any difference guv' and its the same weight and stiffness honest guv' same with the new sail...it is not faster than the old one guv' trust me....

It’s incremental progress- a bit like the XD upgrades in the late 90’s.  All voted in via the ILCA due process overseen by World Sailing.  It’s hardly cloak and dagger stuff.  

If some folks want to believe the bullsh*t claims needed to passify a few neighsayers who probably don’t even sail the boat, then let them go for it.... personally I think the incremental progress could be sped up a bit, but I respect the process behind this, and the reasons for slowing down change.
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