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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sadly that is the way it is going though. I can't think of a modern class that has the traditional model of a designer designs it, gets a builder to build a couple of prototypes then allows anybody to build them subject to a licence fee. The H2 is probably the nearest thing to that but can anybody buy the plans and build them or can they only be built by Hadron Dinghies Ltd (and I understand that it may not be viable for an independent dinghy builder to make moulds etc. in view of the low volume production)?

The H2 was designed by Keith Callaghan / Hadron Dinghys who get White Formula to make the mouldings which are then put together and fitted out by Simon Hipkin to whatever spec the owner wants. 

A couple of examples of what I think has been great customer service - I took one of the blocks off and fitted it back incorrectly resulting in it failing at the Grafham GP, they just sent me a replacement through the post within a day without even asking. When a customer experienced issues getting back into the boat post-capsize they designed a neat righting line kit and offered it at cost by contacting owners asking if they wanted it retrofitted. I could give lots of examples like this, sure the overall cost to Hadron is pennies against a £9k boat but it just makes you feel so much more part of the class than simply a money bag to be pumped.

I suspect the customer service at many small volume dinghy builders is also good, Cirrus and Hartley both spring to mind from personal experience. That's not to say large volume builders can't have excellent customer service too, I have had experience of that too.

My point was more that the traditional model of a designer designing a boat and then, more or less, throwing it out there for home or small builders to build and the CA to measure and administer the class (for the benefit of the sailors rather than the shareholders) is now only the province of older classes. Of course none of this is relevant if the class failed to reach critical mass as was the case with the Spice.....

The H2 looks a lovely boat and might well appear on my shortlist when the premium bonds pay out......
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Jon@RS Sailing View Drop Down
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Posts: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon@RS Sailing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 3:21pm
Riv - In the early days of the RS Feva we did sell a top mast but due to the internal sleeve each top mast is slightly different. Many customers struggled to fit the sleeve and it ended up cause more problems then it solved.  

Please drop me an email at jon@rssailing.com and I will try to find a solution for you.
Jon Partridge
RS Sailing
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sadly that is the way it is going though. I can't think of a modern class that has the traditional model of a designer designs it, gets a builder to build a couple of prototypes then allows anybody to build them subject to a licence fee. The H2 is probably the nearest thing to that but can anybody buy the plans and build them or can they only be built by Hadron Dinghies Ltd (and I understand that it may not be viable for an independent dinghy builder to make moulds etc. in view of the low volume production)?

The H2 was designed by Keith Callaghan / Hadron Dinghys who get White Formula to make the mouldings which are then put together and fitted out by Simon Hipkin to whatever spec the owner wants. 

A couple of examples of what I think has been great customer service - I took one of the blocks off and fitted it back incorrectly resulting in it failing at the Grafham GP, they just sent me a replacement through the post within a day without even asking. When a customer experienced issues getting back into the boat post-capsize they designed a neat righting line kit and offered it at cost by contacting owners asking if they wanted it retrofitted. I could give lots of examples like this, sure the overall cost to Hadron is pennies against a £9k boat but it just makes you feel so much more part of the class than simply a money bag to be pumped.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 1:39pm
On the other hand, they are what? under £5k?
So the name of the game is to get mileage out of them and write them down over a ten year life.
A lot of the problem with the hulls is either abuse or UV. People think 'economy training boat' and think it doesn't deserve a cover. Maybe if you're using it intensively and wearing out before UV gets it, that'sa fair choice?
I don't think a Mirror mast is a whole lot cheaper.
Many masts used heavily on the sea are looking fairly sordid with corrosion at 10 years old.
As are Laser rudder stocks etc.
Some winter maintenance of oil or polish into the joins might help a bit? A bit of 3 in 1, GT85 or your favoured snake oil might be worth it.

Cynics would mention that a 10 year life cycle might be about right for lottery grant replacement?
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Would duralac really have worked where things are pop riveted? Even with anodising the slight movement will cause wear and corrosion will set in. 

I feel your pain with the unwanted expense, but, honestly, 10 years on or next to the sea, things are going to corrode. And the fact it's happening on picos and toppers suggests it's not really an RS oversight, but just typical wear and tear for this type of construction... choose another construction method / material and you'll get different but no less costly maintenance issues. 

It's a bit hyperbolic that just because the masts are gone that whole boat has 'limited lifespan'. There are still a few avenues to explore before going in heavy handed CC'ing RYA etc.

Maybe contact other clubs and see what a minimum order would have to be to make it worth RS's while. Just because they don't list them on the site, or the first person you speak to on the phone can't see them on the system, doesn't mean they can't be bought.

Or buy the whole masts and sell surplus parts on ebay / RS used parts facebook page... there's probably others in a similar situation to you, but with the lower masts. 



I agree, the masts on these boats are bought in parts from Selden. I would try approaching them directly if you are worried about the build quality of that part. It's not worth the effort for whoever answers the phone at RS to call up Selden and ask what they thing, it would probably open a whole can of worms that they don't want to deal with. Plus, from a business perspective, Selden are just about the worst company to deal with I can think of!

On the other hand, masts are masts, they've been built like that for years. Just because nobody gave yours a good rinse down after sailing or even at the end of the season doesn't mean that there is a problem with the design or build. Ironically I actually agree with you about the lifespan of these boats, but the masts are not the issue. The hull is the big problem, fittings pull out, water gets in, cracks appear. Not good for a club boat which is pretty hard to repair compared to a GRP or even wooden alternative.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 11:18am
If they're club boats do they need to stay / be class legal? I don't know whether this is feasible or not but maybe replace the top, or the whole stick with a plastic / composite one?
Nick
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 10:44am
Would duralac really have worked where things are pop riveted? Even with anodising the slight movement will cause wear and corrosion will set in. 

I feel your pain with the unwanted expense, but, honestly, 10 years on or next to the sea, things are going to corrode. And the fact it's happening on picos and toppers suggests it's not really an RS oversight, but just typical wear and tear for this type of construction... choose another construction method / material and you'll get different but no less costly maintenance issues. 

It's a bit hyperbolic that just because the masts are gone that whole boat has 'limited lifespan'. There are still a few avenues to explore before going in heavy handed CC'ing RYA etc.

Maybe contact other clubs and see what a minimum order would have to be to make it worth RS's while. Just because they don't list them on the site, or the first person you speak to on the phone can't see them on the system, doesn't mean they can't be bought.

Or buy the whole masts and sell surplus parts on ebay / RS used parts facebook page... there's probably others in a similar situation to you, but with the lower masts. 




Edited by mozzy - 27 Apr 18 at 10:50am
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Riv View Drop Down
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Posts: 353 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 10:05am
Feva top masts are made of three nested tubes rivetted. I could have drilled the rivets out and end for ended, but the outer tube has been cut at an angle and can't be end for ended. but I suppose I could just source the outer tube.

This is precipitated by the recent collapse of two top sections, breaking in a big gust at sea. They failed due to electrolytic action between the shroud attachment plate and the spinnaker attachment plate.

The boats are about 10 yrs old and this failure is solely due to no duralac. 

I do feel that this is the manufacturers reponsibility as it is totally preventable. Incidently all of our club boats, Picos, Toppers, Bugs are all suffering from the same issue to a greater or lesser extent. In the next few weeks I will be re-rivetting all the Pico vang attachment plates on the masts, we have lost 2 Topper lower masts due to corrosion. These are £220 or so each. 

So the bottom line is that all these low maintenance boats actually have a limtted lifespan of about 10yrs, after that major failures will occur and the boat not be economically viable to repair, essentially being an insurance write off.

This will result in lots of unrecyclable plastic lumps littering the dinghy parks (I may have to cut up a Topper soon if I can't convince anyone to take it away) It's on ebay.

I will talk to the RYA and explain the position, as they back the Feva so heavily and also copy all the correspondence to the RS managment. I find that if I spread the pain around sometimes things happen. 
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 9:52am
Sadly that is the way it is going though. I can't think of a modern class that has the traditional model of a designer designs it, gets a builder to build a couple of prototypes then allows anybody to build them subject to a licence fee. The H2 is probably the nearest thing to that but can anybody buy the plans and build them or can they only be built by Hadron Dinghies Ltd (and I understand that it may not be viable for an independent dinghy builder to make moulds etc. in view of the low volume production)?
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Can you source a simple anodised ally tube the right size and transfer the fittings?

This is the thing to do.
At least you can then make with the duralac and prevent a repeat occurence.
With 4 figure sums at stake, the possbility of buying plain tube and having it anodised after drilling the holes might be worth a look?

There are a couple of sellers on ebay doing anodised tube.

Also consider end-for-ending the tubes so the corroded bits are moved to the less-stressed top?
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