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    Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 3:25pm
I think there is a lot of difference in the details between the Finn and Laser in how they are sailed, but the fundamentals are similar. From a Olympic class criteria standpoint, what separates them is really just ideal weight. They are the closest of any two Olympic classes. 

If it's fair that all women must fit in to the radial, then there is a certain logic that says all men should fit in to the laser. 

But, the Finn and Laser probably represent the largest niche in dinghy sailing; i.e. male, single-handed, one sail, hiking dinghies. Maybe that level of ground support deserves two weight classifications? 

The other question is what would you replace the Finn with? I think participation in the Finn is higher than either the Musto Skiff or Moth which have both been touted as 'high performance' singlehander replacements for the Finn.  The moth or skiff may show more crash and burn, but I think that only captures short term attention and can actually put people off trying the sport. Something more attainable may be better advert for sailing as sport, if that's what you want the olympics to be. 
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 3:21pm
This is from a possibly outdated Andy Rice article for optimum weights in Olympic classes;

Laser – Average Weight: 81kg. Weight Range: 78 – 84kg
Finn – Average Weight: 100kg. Weight Range: 94 – 110kg
RS-X - Average Weight: 73kg. Weight Range: 68 – 79kg
49er Helm - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 68 – 77kg
49er Crew - Average Weight: 77kg. Weight Range: 72 – 80kg
470 Helm - Average Weight: 65kg. Weight Range: 60 – 67kg
470 Crew - Average Weight: 71kg. Weight Range: 65 – 75kg

My reading of this is that either the 49er or the 470 should go if weight is the driver.

You would then have to consider; do you go for the photogenic 49er or the 470 that is more relevant to what people do
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 3:12pm
I would say a Finn is tweakier, and a more sophisticated in general.  The physical efforts needed to pump 1:1 downwind are definitely an athletic skill beyond any Laser sailing bicep curls, but then so is straight-legging it in a Laser and footing off just enough to plane upwind like Slingsby - both beyond most posting here for sure. 

It also challenges the helmsman, coach and onshore technical team to select the perfect equipment - or indeed commission North and Wilke or whoever to run the tests and several cloths and sections for your campaign.  It certainly tests the ability to ensure Devoti produce your boat with the correct swing weight characteristics, not to mention flex profile of the centreboard to optimise to your weight.  It would be nice to think the fellas in Burnham on Crouch could produce as competitive a boat as Luca and Roman.... but you can't ignore the statistics.  if you want to win, you need one of the special ones from the Czech Republic and ideally get Rodney to string it for you.    

Yes - the Finn is a far more complex equation than rocking up after 4 years hard training and hoping you don't get the 'Friday afternoon one' after the pushchair company had a heavy session down the pub in Banbury.  And, I'd argue the Finn method is far more representative of the sport here the UK.  OK, we don't have the same resources, nor the same margin of error for poor off-the-water choices, but we all pick and pay for the most appropriate kit for our body type and prevailing conditions.  No one hands us a random one-of-the-same boats on a Wednesday night and expects us to get on with it.  That's not how our sport works... not yet anyway.  We are all closetly endorsing the Finn approach really, especially if you're a proponent of handicap racing.

I don't pretend to know which option is best if you are trying to be seen as the pinnacle of the world that is yacht racing... my own opinion is worthless, I'd pick the Finn, it's a classy boat for classy people.  But I know which one is a sh*t load fairer to emerging nations and those with less cash and sponsorship.  

 It just depends on the IOC's priorities really - it doesn't need both.    


Edited by turnturtle - 27 Mar 18 at 3:22pm
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 2:38pm
Sorry, but you're talking absolute hoop Graeme - that's like saying 'why bother with a Solution, cos if you're a midget a Topper will do!'.

Ainslie was nowhere near the same size in the Finn as he was in the Laser. For that argument to hold water you could say that we shouldn't bother with a keelboat either as Iain Percy won in Finns and Stars. Or bin the catamarans cos Elvstom was ace in the Tornado and the Finn.

The fact that you think that 'There's nothing in a Finn can't be done in a Laser' shows how little you know. Even TT, who's arguing the same point of view as you, would disagree there I'm sure.

You're all also just talking about sailor weights, which for the top-end in the Finn is between 90-105 Kgs, and nobody has considered physique. At 90Kgs a Finn sailor may only be 5-10Kgs too heavy, but in all likelihood he'll be 6ft 4in plus - which is uncomfortable, impractical and potentially unhealthy for the limbs in a Laser.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Finn was the men's heavyweight dinghy (it's now open I believe...). Europe was the women's singlehander, the equivalent to the laser. It was replaced directly by the radial, i think on cost amongst other things like the global reach of the laser class and circuit. 

So logic would dictate that what's fair for women..

So why seriously do we need two single handed hiking classes, when we have one with a mix of two sails and if necessary a bigger rig could be sanctioned if they, unlike windsurfing, are permitted another weight group which is all it is replacing..

There's nothing in a Finn can't be done in a Laser and arguably the Laser has a Global spread across all genders and weight groupings, there is no counter argument given the Ainslie victory in both classes.

Sorry it's got to go to make way for something more modern and equally available to a Global chequebook and gender spread.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Mar 18 at 2:10pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 1:57pm
First and foremost, I think it's a bit difficult to justify why the Olympics needs the Laser and the Finn - they test the same broad on-the-water sailing skillsets- albeit with slight difference in optimum weight, about what, 15kg?  This is nothing in terms of what elite athletes can do to optimise their body for any given sporting pursuit - especially over a 4 year cycle.  

Secondly, despite knowing which one I'd rather have if there local racing in them, it's also rather tricky to justify why the Finn would beat the Laser in selection.  It's on the upper end of global athlete weight, it's far more expensive, it's more cumbersome to transport and the equipment is not standardised like event supplied Lasers and the RS:X.

That said, the Finn lobby have been remarkably successful over the years - and that's why they use people far smarter than me to argue their case where it matters.

Finn ain't going anywhere folks....    


Edited by turnturtle - 27 Mar 18 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 1:14pm
Finn was the men's heavyweight dinghy (it's now open I believe...). Europe was the women's singlehander, the equivalent to the laser. It was replaced directly by the radial, i think on cost amongst other things like the global reach of the laser class and circuit. 
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Or, as it is known, The Europe :) (okay I know to is not actually much like a Finn beyond a first glance,,,,,,)


So what was the deal with the exit of the Europe? Women obviously lesser beings than fat men?
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 12:56pm
Or, as it is known, The Europe :) (okay I know to is not actually much like a Finn beyond a first glance,,,,,,)
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 18 at 10:39am
Just post war, there weren't many boats which could be produced quickly enough to get a fleet together. The British Moth was also considered, which given a windy week in Torbay, could have been very interesting indeed!
Given that it was considered too hard to sail single-handed and so a new boat designed for 1952, it does seem odd that a boat which needs as much weight single-handed as a Firefly does double-handed was chosen to replace it. However, all these years on, it has, to me, become as much a part of the games as the weights in lifting heavy stuff, or the shot in throwing heavy stuff.
Maybe the Women's singlehander should be a 3/4 scale Finn?
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