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    Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 8:50am
It sounds like Dan has it pretty much right, the bearing is a captive steel plate. The boat is 8 years old, and the cleat could be just as old.
 
Speaking to a few 800 sailors the Harken fitting is fine when new, so it's not an issue as they come out of the factory. However, people often try to bend them (instead of fitting wedges) which splays the captives plates apart introducing a load of play. That or they get stood on or kicked. 

Here's a little video of the issue i'm having. I can generally get if after a few flicks of the sheet when reasonably high wiring. But that's no use when you're sailing past the windward mark, struggling to duck a transom, or being hit by a gust. I'm also having to put so much effort in to uncleating I'm wobbling around with the steering too. 

Anyway, I'm getting a replacement Harken one. A new one should fix the issue. This has done eight years, which is a fair service. If I still have the problem I'll look at other solutions. 




Edited by mozzy - 13 Mar 18 at 8:59am
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 10:04am
What's wrong in using British made kit and supporting the British Marine industry?

If it is the right stuff well yes of course ... but would you go for it if it was wrong or just because had a union flag sticker on it ?  Surely not ....
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 10:53am
I'm not surprised you are having trouble. The way a cam cleat works is that the more load on the sheet the harder it grips. Flicking it up will only work if the load is extremely low. To release pull the sheet in to take off the load and lift at the same time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 11:42am
Turn the sound on, you can hear the force I'm pulling. Pause the video at 22 seconds. I'm not just shocking the rope upwards, but shocking a significant amount of tension in to the sheet. 

I'm not saying I couldn't be better and I have tried pulling tension in to the sheet then raising my hand up to lift it out, but I can't hold nearly enough static load with an outstretched hand above my head.  I just think if I can't get the sheet out of the cleat like this reliably, then there must be something wrong. I've never had this issue in the 49er or 29er which has similar cleats and sheet loads.  

For reference, the sheet is pretty loaded. The last bit of sheet is squeezed on using a straight arm and my legs. No way I could produce that force above my head with an out stretched arm any other way than shocking the line like in the video. 

Watch dylan here, at 1:40, he's using the same technique as me to flick the rope up. 


Edited by mozzy - 13 Mar 18 at 11:50am
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 2:11pm
What cleat is it on the swivel, is it as big as a Harken 150.
If it isn't the fact that the swival head (that holds the cleat is moving around) is the diam of the sheet close to the upper limit of the cleat. This can make it hard to "snatch" the sheet out of the cleat.
Is there a fair lead over the top of the cleat, might be worth this being an extreme hi angle one if you can, give the sheet as much room as possible
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Turn the sound on, you can hear the force I'm pulling. Pause the video at 22 seconds. I'm not just shocking the rope upwards, but shocking a significant amount of tension in to the sheet. 

I'm not saying I couldn't be better and I have tried pulling tension in to the sheet then raising my hand up to lift it out, but I can't hold nearly enough static load with an outstretched hand above my head.  I just think if I can't get the sheet out of the cleat like this reliably, then there must be something wrong. I've never had this issue in the 49er or 29er which has similar cleats and sheet loads.  

For reference, the sheet is pretty loaded. The last bit of sheet is squeezed on using a straight arm and my legs. No way I could produce that force above my head with an out stretched arm any other way than shocking the line like in the video. 

Watch dylan here, at 1:40, he's using the same technique as me to flick the rope up. 

Sorry, that last post came across a bit condescending, it was not meant that way.... 

As you say it's pretty impossible to unload the sheet with your arm above your head. Are the sheet loads particularly high on the 800? I know I'm always telling my Spice crews to pull and lift, upwind jib sheet loads are pretty high on the Spice (I don't rig them 2:1) but the cleats are not on a swivel so don't move around. Those Spinlock cleats are brilliant and the Ronstan swivel GRF suggests is a good bit of kit too.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 6:59pm
I seem to recall the 800 I've sailed had quite light load on the jib sheet due to some multi-purchase tackle on it? As much to get fine control as to give power? Maybe check the rigging guide?

The swivel is knackered. Either buy a new one or try tightening the rivet-like thing which is the swivel axis. I think we had a Holt-Allen fitting, which survived as much inept abuse as we could muster. But check the hole spacings before buying one.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

I seem to recall the 800 I've sailed had quite light load on the jib sheet due to some multi-purchase tackle on it? As much to get fine control as to give power? Maybe check the rigging guide?

Sounds like a new swivel is required then as loads of play may well make it impossible. I have no trouble uncleating the mainsheet on the Spice from the wire, no flicking or snatching involved just a 'pull and lift'. The Spice has pretty heavy mainsheet loads but the dual swivel setup (kicker underneath) is pretty solid, even after 20 years use and abuse. No idea what make it is though.......

Just a thought mozzy, do you know what cleat Dylan is using ion that video? A flick like that may well work with the Spinlock, they require very little effort to release as they have a totally different design to a conventional cam cleat (I think they borrow off rope clutch tech, clutches are designed to release under high loads, cam cleats are not).



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 13 Mar 18 at 7:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 10:31pm
That's an old video, but I think dylan has been sponsored by allen for a long time, so I guess their version... but recently he has his name on this design. A bloke from our club offered me one as a replacement, but he also said he never fitted it because a new harken one on his new boat worked well. 

I expect the a new harken one will solve the problem, so I'm going to try that first. With maybe a wedge. If I still have the issue we'll have to look at other ways of improving the situation.

I hope the cleat has just been bent and it doesn't turn out I'm just being a weed!

The jib is 3:1. Loads are really light, until you pull the last few cm on which really crank the jib leech tension. Still not ridiculously hurting your hands hard to pull on, but something I can't do with an outstretched arm. Was just the same on the 29er and 49er. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 18 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

What cleat is it on the swivel, is it as big as a Harken 150.
If it isn't the fact that the swival head (that holds the cleat is moving around) is the diam of the sheet close to the upper limit of the cleat. This can make it hard to "snatch" the sheet out of the cleat.
Is there a fair lead over the top of the cleat, might be worth this being an extreme hi angle one if you can, give the sheet as much room as possible

Its the 'standard size' harken cleat, not the smaller micro. Sheet is 6mm Rooster AllSpec which I would think is would be fine but I'll check all that when I fit the new one. 
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