Not seen at the show

Originally posted by Old Timer ..... What I meant was that if you are out for non-racing fun you dont care about VMG so why have a more complex set up. I have seen loads of people trying to haul down the 400 kite only to realise they have forgotten to uncleat the pole swinger ... Assys were invented for boats that sailed on apparent to get down wind; then they were cobbled onto slower boats that did not achieve apparent in all but high winds so systems need to be invented to address that; i many cases a sym kite is superior but an assy avoids all the messing about with poles.

I don't think people buying new boats of this genre for 'non racing fun' amounts to much of a market.
I guess the beach holiday operators might like a boat that was fun to reach across the bay repeatedly without making much progress downwind.
Fair comment about the releasing the wing wang. Maybe some genius will invent one which releases when you release the halyard and tack line.

As for the idea that asy's only work on very high power boats, the list of non-trapeze, non asy boats under 15ft with a py under 1000 would be limited to the Merlin, the Moth and some catamarans?
Show me a boat vaguely comparable to the 400 in size, weight and righting moment which goes as fast on average as a 400?
The various asy two handers with four figure PYs may be considered dogs/bandits/'just for kids to learn on'. Or some combination thereof.

People sometimes forget that the asymetric, is exactly that, it does not have to have the same camber on the leach as the luff. So it can be a more efficient reaching sail and we can carry more of it, more effectively. It's not just bigger and simpler.

Old Timer .....

Your points are valid about the validity of asymetrics on slower boats - of course and I totally agree.  However this hull can take EITHER the 2-sail Icon rig OR the 3-sail Venom one .... It is a common hull for two boats.  So if you are in a market where both versions are supplied then you could make that choice based on where your sail and what and how you want to sail.    My view is that this avoids all the complexity, weight, and cost plus handling compromises inherent with the wing/wang approach.  It is very difficult indeed to be all things to all people or for one rig approach to not end up partly or wholly compromised.    If I wanted, unlikely though that is, to take a 3 sail asymetric boat down a river on a rare occasion I might simply goosewing a la early 200 style even.  If I was doing it every week I'd go for a symetrical spinnaker class or even 2-sail version of this boat or similar craft (ie Icon rig in UK).  

Only my take on the issue raised of course.  

Originally posted by Old Timer Swing pole is only useful if you care about your VMG on an under canvased assy ... For a fun boat why make life more complicated.

You're probably just trolling, but...
If you don't care about your VMG, you just end up hoovering from side to side and not making progress towards the mark.
I only sail for fun, but failing to get where you want to go is not fun, particulary when other classes then overtake.
The complication is two cleats and a few blocks. One release and one pull in a gybe.

Whether you consider boats like the 400 (and 4k) undercanvassed depends whether you are looking for w/l or RTC. The properly canvassed 59er was not a success.
For even more versatility, a symetric kite suits many people, but that will be even less canvas and less top speed.

All boats are compromises, there is a limited market for one-trick ponies, as many vendors keep  proving, but OTOH, trying to please everyone won't work either.

Originally posted by davidyacht Symetrical kites are underrated, offer far more venue options for a boat of this type.

While I see plenty of merit in symetrical kites, a boat equipped with one would not be 'of this type'.
Do we need all these venue options? I'm quite happy to have a boat that is OK for fairly open water.
If I want to cross oceans or sail on a narrow river, then clearly a different boat will be best.
Why should the options of those who do proper sailing on the sea be limited by other people who want to sail on rivers and small bits of damp wasteland?

Symetrical kites are underrated, offer far more venue options for a boat of this type.