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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Joined: 05 Dec 14
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    Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket......


It seems to me most people are paying a lot more to sail than to go to the pics.
A typical season costs me say £300 for a new sail, £500 in depreciation, £100 insurance, £200 in club fees... need I go on? We are easily looking at £20 a race. And I think I'm near the cheap end of the market.

I'm sure pay'n'play could be made to work. I expect the economics would be a bit like the karting operation down the road. It works out about a pound a minute of actual driving. And that's for driving a machine which is a lot cheaper to buy than a laser and has cheaper consumables.
That's fun for about an hour a year.


well put Eric.  I think you could beer can race an old laser on a cheaper budget, but you make a fair assessment of your costs.  I guess the question I've got is, if looking in to that crystal ball, will the Karting operation still be going in 20 years time?  I hope for those that enjoy it, it will be, but I don't know.... the dream of a VAT free helicopter one day may be enough of a draw.

However, I'd suggest there are a sailing club or two who won't be around in 20 years given their current reliance on age 65+ volunteers - some of whom can unfortunately, dare I say unfairly, come across as a little cliquey and out of touch to younger generations.      
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 1:27pm
I use commercial operation at Newquay, Mid Wales, a couple of times a year, they also hire Kayaks and SUP boards, works well, but mainly I think because of where it is.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

.....

From my generation, I think I'm the only person I know racing / sailing dinghies who wasn't introduced by their parents. Was it always like that?

I think I'm still racing against those parents?
It's not always like that. Schools used to do more, some people I know were introduced to sailing through Scouts, Sea Scouts, Cadets etc.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket......


It seems to me most people are paying a lot more to sail than to go to the pics.
A typical season costs me say £300 for a new sail, £500 in depreciation, £100 insurance, £200 in club fees... need I go on? We are easily looking at £20 a race. And I think I'm near the cheap end of the market.

I'm sure pay'n'play could be made to work. I expect the economics would be a bit like the karting operation down the road. It works out about a pound a minute of actual driving. And that's for driving a machine which is a lot cheaper to buy than a laser and has cheaper consumables.
That's fun for about an hour a year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 11:46am
There are two problems as I see it:
1) How are people introduced to a sport in such a way they will come back?

I would wager that there is a greater conversion of non-sailors to racers by those who are introduced by friends and family. Do you or your club have access to a boat you could use to introduce a friend of family member to sailing or racing specifically?  Are there any incentives in place for you to make the effort to introduce new people? 

2) The cost and reward of maintaining an interest?

Costs are time and money and rewards are feelings of accomplishment, freedom / exhilaration and friendships. There are many things we can do on a local level to amplify the reward and structure the costs to make them more manageable. Finance or pay as you play options would certainly help graduates. But., ultimately the amount of time and money people have to spend is out of our sports control. My feeling is PY and the boats we sail fits in here as they can diminish the feelings of reward... but it makes up a small part of the equation. 

From my generation, I think I'm the only person I know racing / sailing dinghies who wasn't introduced by their parents. Was it always like that?


Edited by mozzy - 29 Jan 18 at 11:54am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 11:34am
Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket.  A cinema ticket is what, 8 quid plus popcorn?  That's a value judgement I guess most here would make and agree on.

The local leisure centre runs spin classes - they're £4 a session for 45 minutes.  They're fully booked.

My snowdome 'member's discount' session is £26 - without being derogatory, I doubt the local clientele would be described as 'rich'.  Yet, it's popular enough to be sustainable and more snowdomes are springing up despite the enormous capital outlay and running costs they demand for their operators. 

I certainly wouldn't question a £25 entry fee for an open meeting - yet so many do.  Not to mention the comparative cost of a holiday camping at a nationals - it's peanuts compared to a 'proper holiday', yet somehow there's always some tight wad moaning about entry fees and the cost of the beer at a decent club venue.   

I haven't bought a dinghy thinking it wouldn't depreciate - yet that's the modus operandi for many dinghy sailors.  They expect their 'investment' to hold value simply by adding consumables like sails every other year.   Hence the price of new boats with the shrinking pool of those prepared to fund them creates a further divide between haves and have nots - not great right?  And certainly not great for after-market management.  

The once aspirational thought of owning a brand new boat is even further off the agenda for many until a relative pops their clogs or the PPI claim was better than expected.   The car industry dealt with this years ago - breaking down the new car ownership barrier.  A decent financing operation ought to be applicable for the dinghy market, yet I'm sadly reluctant to say it would be that successful in changing common mindsets.  After all what's not like about flogging your old sh*t to newbies ideally for more than you paid for it.  

Dinghy sailing will always have an element of elitism about it, and kind of 'so what' to a level given the Chatham Average out there....  but I don't believe that servicing it properly means that it will be purely a 'rich man's' game.  We just need to accept the true running costs in the future if the pool of mugginses drops off this metaphorical cliff edge... and yes, it'll still probably be cheaper than a Premier League season ticket, so I ain't whinging about cost.    


Edited by turnturtle - 29 Jan 18 at 11:36am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:46am
Originally posted by iGRF

Don't you enforce a muggins rota? Isn't being muggins a pre requisite of membership?

indeed- don't most clubs use that cheapo muggins software called Dutyman?   You'll forgive the lack of gender etiquette in the name when the licence is only £85 inc VAT per annum.

However this is only the tip of the iceberg....  true mugginses do far more than their allocated duties.  Gawd bless them...  

So typically we have 100% of the membership contributing an equal share to the financial commitment to running the club.  Yet, let's say, 10% of the membership (probably less), with an awkwardly disproportionate responsibility for the leg work needed to make the activities of the club happen.    No commercial operation would run a model where everyone receives the same renumeration, irrespective of the type and quality of the work they put in.  On a grander scale that's exactly where communism failed - it's leads to power imbalance, corruption and ultimate failure.  

Platitudes like "you get out what you put in" might help maintain the spirit of volunteering for a little longer until those individuals burn out and pick up the golf sticks, but they fail to address the one seismic shift in personal economics over the past couple of decades:  

Today's primary asset in 1st world economies is not money, it is time.  So it makes infinite sense that the those with more time that they are willing to commit to community activities (e.g. students and those on pensions), should not have to pay the same as those who lack it.

If a 'club' model is to become sustainable into the 21st Century, I think this change in fee structure needs to happen to enable a better balance of the time vs cash equation.  Or alternatively forget the notion of clubs and commodores... let the cliff edge happen and hopefully commercial sailing centres will rise from the ashes offering a breadth of services for example training, racing and expedition tourism and all in decent boats with lease options for those who don't want the ultimate commitment of boat ownership. 




Edited by turnturtle - 29 Jan 18 at 10:51am
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:18am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.

Jim C. Exactly! More importantly, these are the conditions that are also perfect for the wider introduction of a 'pay and play' franchise - and yes, that too has been floated on this forum and I'm aware of clubs that are actively looking at it. 

My researches have shown however that for P&P to work effectively (I'd define that as good boats, the sort we'd want to sail/own ourselves, to be maintained in very good order and in sufficient numbers that punters don't turn up to an empty dinghy park - plus the management and oversight) will not be a cheap option. This may well tie in with TTs comments about our readiness to pay for what we do. The convenience factor would be high but it may well come at a price that yes, aims the service at those who can afford....and are happy - to pay!

D
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:07am
Don't you enforce a muggins rota? Isn't being muggins a pre requisite of membership?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 11:08pm
I don’t disagree with you... in an ideal world both models would exist and we would have choice.

As for value vs cost - well the market decided these factors, how much value one attributes to their time is a uniquely personal experience and may differ at different stages of life in my experience.

Edit: as for the muggins’s of the world, actually I don’t deride them and also agree that without them clubs would crash. When you do place value on your time, you appreciate their contribution more than those who sit somewhere in the middle, oblivious to it all and happy trudging a path of status quo of equitable financial contribution but with a huge imbalance of sweat equity.

Edited by turnturtle - 28 Jan 18 at 11:38pm
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