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    Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Of course I had to look up ROI before I could respond.
I do not have the conceit to say you are wrong but I do feel able to disagree.
I think most people may hear parsimonious and take it as a derogatory term. I could myself take that view but actually prefer to see it as a positive "an unwillingness to spend money" is really not such an insult. I would say a good trait to pursue in the interests of keeping sailing accessible to all.
Now Muggins, that is really not such an easy sit. I haven't looked up the slang definition but I assume it means a person who readily accepts being taken advantage of. I would suggest that many you deride see themselves as worthwhile contributors and willing givers of knowledge for the benefit of an activity they love.
"comparable cost of leisure" I really do rail against the notion that leisure is a product that can always be bought. What about an alternative notion, put some time in and make it happen. Yes I've heard the argument, it makes financial sense for high earners to spent their valuable time at work to pay the grateful poor or students to support their leisure. It is worth dwelling on that cost is not always proportional to value.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 9:04pm
Of course I had to look up ROI before I could respond.

I do not have the conceit to say you are wrong but I do feel able to disagree.

I think most people may hear parsimonious and take it as a derogatory term. I could myself take that view but actually prefer to see it as a positive "an unwillingness to spend money" is really not such an insult. I would say a good trait to pursue in the interests of keeping sailing accessible to all.

Now Muggins, that is really not such an easy sit. I haven't looked up the slang definition but I assume it means a person who readily accepts being taken advantage of. I would suggest that many you deride see themselves as worthwhile contributors and willing givers of knowledge for the benefit of an activity they love.

"comparable cost of leisure" I really do rail against the notion that leisure is a product that can always be bought. What about an alternative notion, put some time in and make it happen. Yes I've heard the argument, it makes financial sense for high earners to spent their valuable time at work to pay the grateful poor or students to support their leisure. It is worth dwelling on that cost is not always proportional to value.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.


As an advocate of that very model, I’m sadly still firmly of the belief there isn’t the ROI for it to work... yet. In general, dinghy sailors are simply too parsimonious around the comparable cost of leisure and sadly, those who would be willing to pay simply don’t need to when ‘Muggins and his band of 6 reliable extras over there’ are prepared to do it all for free

Yes, that attitude stinks, but it’s the sad reality of many clubs..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Pierre

Originally posted by Do Different

Not sure what you're saying Pierre. 

Attitude to risk has changed and it is difficult to generalise.

My mate's Dad was a respected Osprey sailor in the heyday, minimal safety clothing at sea but according to my mate he simply did not capsize. Nowadays with better clothing and more safety cover there seems to be a greater willingness to push harder and accept crashing as part of the game.
  

I think what I am saying is I get a bit tired of people's absolute reliance of safety boats, and the like, every time they go for a paddle, and seem unable to accept personal responsibility for their own actions. Be a bit brave chaps and mtfu.
Yes staying upright is fast. 
Equipment today is great




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Edited by Sam.Spoons - 28 Jan 18 at 12:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 11:08am
JimC,
I don't think that's what he meant, a few clubs have proffesional staff who don't charge sky high fees, people who are time poor and don't want to waste time by doing duty can find clubs with staff, I have no issue with this, article implied volunteer clubs going the sky high fees route and no clunkers, my club has 50 50 split new/old, the 50% of old boats also contain legacy boats, which for the main part are in excellent conditon.

Across the two articles their was also mention of RYA encouraging clubs to keep best parking spaces etc for members who sail clubs recognised class, how can an organisation that pushes elitist practice be said to represent sailing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 10:05am
Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 9:22am
Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy.

I think to a point it already has, there are at the clubs I sail at far fewer old sub £500 or even £1000 boats active than there were when I started sailing in the mid 90's. Maybe there is just more money around, I dont know but the "stock boat" racing of bodging a tired old plastic Enterprise back together over lunch seems to have died a death - this is probably a good thing for the sport as the usual process was for newbies to buy said plastic Enterprise, spend a month trying to keep it sailing then park it up to sell on to someone who comes off next years course.

What is frustrating are the hoops that an inner city club have to be seen to jump through regarding diversity to justify their presence and the members time that gets wasted on trying to encourage non - white people to come sailing. If they want to come they will, and actually quite a number have.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Not sure what you're saying Pierre. 

Attitude to risk has changed and it is difficult to generalise.

My mate's Dad was a respected Osprey sailor in the heyday, minimal safety clothing at sea but according to my mate he simply did not capsize. Nowadays with better clothing and more safety cover there seems to be a greater willingness to push harder and accept crashing as part of the game.
  

I think what I am saying is I get a bit tired of people's absolute reliance of safety boats, and the like, every time they go for a paddle, and seem unable to accept personal responsibility for their own actions. Be a bit brave chaps and mtfu.
Yes staying upright is fast. 
Equipment today is great



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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 7:55pm
One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen, clubs would have to ban all second hand boats, charge exhorbitant membership fees.
I personally would counter these measures by starting my own club, there are several suitable lakes close to me without clubs, allowing old boats, cheap fees.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 18 at 7:24pm
The BA thing is a slightly odd one, I was taught to always wear one in a boat, without fail, and I still do but I almost never wear one while windsurfing (big wind and/or waves on the sea only). Maybe it was my dad's way of convincing my mum that I would be safe, though the culture was in place anyway and many classes mandated on personal buoyancy when racing. I suppose if I was sailing a proper skiff I might not wear one if I found it got in the way but probably not, it's too ingrained after 50+ years.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Jan 18 at 7:24pm
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