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Campaigning with electric cars.
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    Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 9:28pm
That's all very well but there is a huge lie being told that cannot go on once any significant number of electric cars get into use.

Much as the subsidy for solar panels fell away with broader take up and the road fund tax rules changed as too many met the nil rate.

The cost of electricity for charging cars will have to carry a tax burden to balance that lost from sales of petrol. 
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 9:14am
As well as the inevitable loss of subsidy, what are the practicalities of trying charge at a motorway service station. How long will you have to wait there? And how big will the queues be if 50% of the traffic coming in wants to charge up, and each charge takes 20min or so? Will they install charging infrastructure at every parking bay? What are the cost and power supply implications there? I wouldn't plan on an electric car anytime soon if you want it for frequent 400m journeys.
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inductive charging built into the road could solve that https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-charges-your-electric-car
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Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:
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Posts: 135 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 10:58am
The most practical solution would be exchangeable batteries. A bit like they used to do with horses in the old days of coaches....
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 11:22am
Except the batteries cost upwards of £8000 and weigh several hundred kg. Until sufficiently powerful batteries become light enough and cheap enough the cost of supplying them and maintaining the infrastructure will be prohibitive.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:

I found this quote interesting :-

"The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option."
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Except the batteries cost upwards of £8000 and weigh several hundred kg. Until sufficiently powerful batteries become light enough and cheap enough the cost of supplying them and maintaining the infrastructure will be prohibitive.

And therein lies the answer to the other problem....the wholesale change to the light vehicle industry....just think about all those hydro-carbon cars purchased on 'hire purchase' which will be next to valueless...

So I foresee a future in which you may (but will not necessarily) own your vehicle, but the batteries you will lease.  And will therefore be able to operate 'stage coach style'.  You'll pay more for premium batteries / a premium service.

Actually it's interesting that the Tesla concept has a 'One Design' Battery, so that it is not physically difficult to upgrade.

Countries and regions which don't have a developed (stressed?) road network like ours may be better placed to adopt technologies like induction charging on the move.  It may even confer an economic advantage on them.
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:

I found this quote interesting :-

"The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option."

That's one of the arguments put forward, true.Which is fine. There are of course other quotes that promote a positive view and engage with the concept of change, that is needed to reduce the impact we have on the biosphere.

For instance : "Analysts today make the same mistake that experts and mainstream analysts made when the first iPhone came out in 2007: Why would anyone want to buy a $600 smartphone when they can buy the $100 Nokia? NOK, +0.80% The smartphone was a superior product with a lot of functionality beyond making a phone call. Electric vehicles are similarly a superior product to internal-combustion vehicles.

The electric drive train is superior in acceleration, power, etc. The Tesla TSLA, +0.11% Model S was named the Motor Trend Car of the Year as far back as 2013. Consumer Reports named it the best car ever made. One-tenth the cost of charging per mile, one-tenth the cost of maintenance, 500,000-mile life vs. 140,000 to 200,000 for an internal-combustion vehicle. Some electric-vehicle companies are making the million-mile electric vehicle. You can charge anywhere. You can charge your house with your car or your car with your house.

There are two ways in which electric vehicles can/will disrupt the market. No. 1: The replacement of the internal-combustion vehicle by the electric vehicle. By 2020, consumers will be able to buy an electric vehicle with the performance of today’s Porsche PAH3, +2.48% for 10% to 20% less than the median new car in America. So the electric vehicles will be cheaper to buy, more powerful, 80% to 90% cheaper to fuel, and 90% cheaper to maintain. Electric vehicles will continue to drop in cost so that by 2025 all new vehicles will be electric. This is a slower disruption because it’s a 1 to 1 substitution of the existing car fleet."
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 3:26pm
I suspect that, as usual, the political push is in the wrong direction. IIR, 30 years ago governments pushed car makers down the catalytic converter route, when lean-burn engines would have been wiser, reducing NO2 for the same emissions level of everything else.

Then we all got pushed at diesels and are now treated as pariahs for complying.

Now government subsidies are for battery engines. But we are about to run short of generating power for 'normal' use never mind replacing every internal combustion engine. The batteries rely on lithium (ever seen the scar on the landscape that is a lithium mine) and most the electricity is generated by hydrocarbons. We of all people know wind is not the answer.

Surely hydrogen powered vehicles ultimately make more joined-up-thinking sense.

And has has been said before, the the government would go bust without car fuel taxes. Whatever cars are ultimately powered by, they will have to find a way to push tax them the same level per mile as we get stung today. The claims we will end up paying a fraction of what we currently do for motor fuel (when around 60% of the price is tax in one form or another) is a blatant lie.


Edited by fab100 - 29 Nov 17 at 3:49pm
Great book for Club Sailors here
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