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ISAF Anti monopoly regs coming?
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by bustinben

In the case of the laser, no.  They don't own the construction manual which documents the process required to build the boat,  all the key measurements etc.  They only own the trademark, and that's what stops the class from licensing other builders, because the construction manual and class rules say that "laser" has to be plastered all over the boat.

So, another thought, why can't the guy who owns the 'constructors manual' copyright (Bruce Kirby), withdraw the right to use it from Laser Performance? There's obviously a legal reason why that doesn't prevent LP from building Lasers or I'm damn sure he would have done it. But that leads back to my original statement that anybody could start a CA and declare all Lasers, Torches or identically constructed boats to be class legal for their new class (Rooster 7.1 anybody?)?
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 17 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

So I could start a company building The Loser Dinghy (exactly the same as a Laser dinghy but with a different name) and nobody could sue me? I could then set up a "Loser Class Association" and declare that I would allow all "Laser" dinghies and all "Kirby Torch" dinghies to join and race events on equal terms with the 'Loser" class?

Pretty sure you could, although without the construction manual you'd probably struggle to build them as badly as required...  I believe the construction manual is copyright, which is why you have to license it from bruce kirby with the permission of the class (or something).

You also might find that world sailing would ask questions before ratifying your class.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 9:11am
Surely World Sailing only have to ratify international classes (and usually new dinghy classes don't achieve Int status until they are building and sailing boats in several different countries)?
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by bustinben

In the case of the laser, no.  They don't own the construction manual which documents the process required to build the boat,  all the key measurements etc.  They only own the trademark, and that's what stops the class from licensing other builders, because the construction manual and class rules say that "laser" has to be plastered all over the boat.

So, another thought, why can't the guy who owns the 'constructors manual' copyright (Bruce Kirby), withdraw the right to use it from Laser Performance? There's obviously a legal reason why that doesn't prevent LP from building Lasers or I'm damn sure he would have done it. But that leads back to my original statement that anybody could start a CA and declare all Lasers, Torches or identically constructed boats to be class legal for their new class (Rooster 7.1 anybody?)?

It could be that it's owned by the class - you'd have to dig through all the court case stuff to find out.  He certainly revoked the right for his trademark "designed by bruce kirby" to be used by them, which was why there was a rule vote to remove that from the measurement plaque to ensure the continued supply of boats.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:08am
What confuses me is that if Laser Performance can continue to build Lasers with no agreement from BK and BK can build 'Kirby Torch' dinghies (which are exactly the same boat) without an agreement from LP who owns the 'design rights'? If LDCA or LP own the 'design rights' then why can't they prevent BK from building the Torch, if BK does why can't he stop LP from building them?
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 11:56am
I suspect the Torch thing is dead. My guess is it was intended to put some pressure on LP and it didn't happen.

The whole IP situation with boats is rather complicated. I'm not sure to what extent "design rights" are a real thing. My impression is that the real influence was/is in trademarks and contracts.
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Posts: 206 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiticki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 12:04pm
I thought Bruce Kirby was dead?
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by JimC

I suspect the Torch thing is dead. My guess is it was intended to put some pressure on LP and it didn't happen.

The whole IP situation with boats is rather complicated. I'm not sure to what extent "design rights" are a real thing. My impression is that the real influence was/is in trademarks and contracts.

It is certainly the case that the Laser trademarks belong to LP and nobody else can build a "Laser" but what interests me is the IP aspect. A few UK classes have the 'rights holder' mentioned in their class rules and the 'design rights' have been known to change hands (presumably for a consideration).

The Spice and Buzz were originally Topper boats (thought built by White Formula) but I assume that the 'rights holder' was Topper who commissioned the designs (not sure where the IP rests...... With the designer or can he pass that to another party?). Bruce Kirby owned the IP to the "Kirby Sailboat" which he licensed to LP in return for a royalty on each one built. I don't understand how they can now build the boat without paying BK his royalty (which I can't imagine is a huge sum relative to the price of a new boat).......
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 3:44pm
World Sailing should just create it's own set of equipment and then select it for the games.

They would then own the whole shooting match and make money from selling the boats.

That would also prevent them having to dick about with all sorts of complexed issues over rights etc.

Why they have not done this to date is anyone guess ... hardly difficult.
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 17 at 5:35pm
"Design rights" mean different things in different countries - I believe that with the laser Bruce Kirby was reliant on the class rules and his trademark being on the plaque.  There's also copyright on the "construction manual" because it's a book.

In the UK you can copyright a design for 25 years if you register it.  That's expired for the laser anyway even if Bruce Kirby had registered it, which he hadn't...

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-design


Edited by bustinben - 13 Nov 17 at 5:39pm
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