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Dinghys with keels

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pompeysailor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pompeysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dinghys with keels
    Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 4:02pm
launching at many sailing clubs prevents the many Keelboat/Dinghies with keels from taking off. The reason is launching from a road base - heavy, ruins the bearings and someone always needs waders etc. and also the need for immediate depth close to the shore.
How about a design where the actual bulb can be raised/lowered seperately from the centerboard (which can also be raised/lowered indepndantly from the bulb so allows the boat to be launched from a trolley & sail away from the shore without needing 4/5 ft under you so keel/bulb can be set in place?
Now doodling on my notepad..
Formerly - OK 2145 Phantom 1437, Blaze 819, Fireball 14668, Mirror 54145
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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 2:11pm
70 years ago! (my god), this was as close to a dinghy with a keel as you could get: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/194491/70th-anniversary-Flying-Fifteen-celebrations  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 17 at 2:05pm
Blue:
 I think my posts agree with you regarding the FF. I sailed them for a long time dating back to Broxbourne Sailing Club. I posted earlier that a FF is a "keelboat with a keel" and distinctly different from the Viper 640 and K6 category of boat. 
I decided to amend my comment...because:-
1. I wanted to recognize that Uffa Fox was ahead of his time, and in its day the FF was the most dinghy like keel boat around.
2. The FF sailors are very fond of calling the FF a "dinghy with a keel"....just check out the FF website. I understand where they are coming from. It is a very lightweight keel boat, even compared to the SB20.
3. It is still a lovely boat and I have many close friends who sail them.
BUT I agree with you, compared to the modern era of Vipers and K6s and the like.....the FF behaves more like a keelboat.

When I sailed FFs (and Solings, many years ago) I used to say to myself  "Why doesnt someone design a keel boat that really takes off downwind and planes?"  Solings especially were beasts in big breeze going downwind. When I stepped on the Viper .....it was one of those "Ah Ha" moment. Finally!

Where I disagree with you is comparing the SB20 to Viper or K6 category.  The SB 20 is much heavier and pushes a lot more water around when it is sailing.  It feels very different.  Not better or worse, just very different. When it comes to launching on a ramp, the lightness of the Viper made it easy. It wasnt my trailer but they looked as robust as a typical salt water trailer. I cannot speak to the K6 or VX but since they are lighter even than a Viper, I assume they must be equally easy to ramp launch.    

I intend to try a K6 because there are a few around locally. 

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Peter18 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 8:44am
Why not take a look at the Seascape 18. Easy to sail 2 up but room for 4. 500kg all up weight, fully lifting keel by winch inside small cabin. As easy to launch as a dinghy, trailer with no brakes and sealed bearings, carbon rig and spars, square top main, roller jib, asymmetric spinnaker with take down deck shute (dinghy style).
UK Nationals this year in Plymouth. Huge race circuit in Europe.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 5:28am
I was seriously considering buying a K6 at one time and sailed one a few times. What finally put me off was the thought that either I needed to find a really large male crew or else sail it three-up, which some do but there isn't really a job for the third person because the boat is laid out for two.

What has killed the sportsboat scene in the UK IMO is that the marinas have continued to ratchet up the dry-sailing cost 5% a year every year regardless of recession or the lack of inflation, and on the whole clubs don't have crane launching. Routinely launching something like an SB20 or a Viper off a road trailer into cold salt water requires a dedication and a willingness to spend time on trailer maintenance which not many people will sustain. Said with feeling as I have done both the launching and the ensuing changing of trailer bearings.

I owned a FF for several seasons. It's a keelboat, a nice sensitive one but still a keelboat, not a "dinghy with a keel". Try pulling one up the beach if you doubt it. Try capsizing one, it's been done but you really have to work at it.


Edited by blueboy - 21 Feb 17 at 5:43am
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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by blueboy

"why havent these classes taken off here?"

The K6 did, up to a point. It has or certainly had a nationals. In UK conditions you need two large males to hold it down in any kind of breeze, or crew of three but the systems are designed for two.

As for the others, no traction because the SB20 (ex SB3) is the incumbent class in that market space, although numbers are very small compared to its peak. I've sailed them a few times. They are a PITA to launch like a dinghy and yacht-expensive to dry-sail from a marina. The only practical way to launch them is with a crane and not many clubs have that facility. Royal Southern YC is the only club I know of with a crane but it doesn't have that much storage space.

Blue, you are correct. There are (or at least there were) K6s at Hayling Island SC near me and I recall reading they had a decent turn out at their Europeans on Lake Garda. It looks like a nice boat and I should try and get out on one. 
BUT  to put this in perspective, I had just come back from racing with 43 Vipers on one start line on Great Sound , Bermuda.  It was an incredibly good time. I was slightly jealous and I look forward to having somethiing similar in scale here. I accept we will never have Dolphins surfacing by the Committe boat in Chichester Harbour any time soon, but this category of boat would work for a lot of people. 

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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 1:30pm
I want to amend an earlier comment of mine.
Although the FF is fundemental different in several important ways from the Viper640, K6 etc etc , it was way ahead of its time.  
Compared to the keel boats of the era it was and is a dinghy with a keel.
Uffa  Fox  was a genius!

The comment about the SB20 got me thinking. The sail plan of the FF may not look as modern as an SB20 but at 20 feet, the FF is a lot lighter and in some ways more dinghy like than an SB 20.  So I suppose we should credit the FF as the original "dinghy with a keel". 

I hear the purists start muttering "if it's got a keel it isn't a dinghy" .  But there is a category of boat that does not fit it well with either dinghies or keel boats. They are tremendous to sail. They sail in a groove upwind a bit like a keel boat. They plane downwind like a high performance dinghy without the drama. So the category name of "dinghy with a keel" is as good as any.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 7:43am
"why havent these classes taken off here?"

The K6 did, up to a point. It has or certainly had a nationals. In UK conditions you need two large males to hold it down in any kind of breeze, or crew of three but the systems are designed for two.

As for the others, no traction because the SB20 (ex SB3) is the incumbent class in that market space, although numbers are very small compared to its peak. I've sailed them a few times. They are a PITA to launch like a dinghy and yacht-expensive to dry-sail from a marina. The only practical way to launch them is with a crane and not many clubs have that facility. Royal Southern YC is the only club I know of with a crane but it doesn't have that much storage space.
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patj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 17 at 6:50am
Half the classes I mentioned in my list above are built in England and yet they are all sold abroad...why haven't these classes taken off here?

Maybe because the shore handling and launching is more time consuming, awkward and off putting and they are somewhat longer than most dinghy clubs allow?

Edited by patj - 20 Feb 17 at 6:50am
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ChichesterHiss View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChichesterHiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 17 at 4:31am
As someone who has sailed Flying Fifteens on and off for 30+ years...the FF is not a dinghy with a keel, it is a keelboat with a keel!

The "Dinghy with a Keel" phenomena describes the ultralight sports boats, typically with a skiff shaped hull, bulb keel and low freeboard that plane downhill like a dinghy.
They include the Viper 640, the K6, the VX, the Open 570 (in France), and the Shaw 650 (Australia).

I flew to Bermuda to crew with my brother in the Viper 640 Worlds last November.

In answer to the OP.
Upwind in lighter air, you sail these kinds of boats with a slight amount of heel and then as flat as you can as the breeze picks up.  Yes, you use crew weight up to force 3, but by upper end of force 3/force 4 and above you are fully hiking and using kicker and main sheet to keep the boat flat.
The boats are mildly athletic upwind but surprisingly comfortable, way more comfortable than hiking in many keel boats. In the bigger winds, we sailed upwind cracked off the breeze a bit, dead flat and we were really ripping.
Downwind, it is all about sailing flat.  Not much crew weight involved, its all about angle and staying on the plane .

Two thoughts occurred to me on the way home.
These classes have really taken off in the USA and Australia.
Half the classes I mentioned in my list above are built in England and yet they are all sold abroad...why havent these classes taken off here?   
  
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