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NickA View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

The Hadron is dare I say it for the Solo sailor looking for something faster and who sales is in a handicap rather than Solo fleet. 



They're all buying D-zeros at my place; not because there wasn't a solo fleet but because they found it a bit dull. 

The Aero is gaining traction as a fun boat and we have three or four on the back of the demo events ... but I've yet to see one race. 

Meanwhile our resident Merlin sailor bought a K-1 for when he's crewless.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 4:17pm
For what it is worth, in the only race that I have done in an H2 we sailed off 1040, finished 3rd and 4th on corrected time, with the people I would expect to be in front ahead of me and those I would expect to be behind ... behind; being someone brought up with 2/3 digit PY's I think that the estimated 104 with an error of + or - two minutes in a hundred is pretty much in the correct ball park.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by zeon

Originally posted by iGRF

The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.


But what sort of TN would encourage people to try the boat, a ridiculously low one so everybody thought it was a rocketship or a nice big bandit number so everybody thought they could get a few wins in before the PYC got their hands on it?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 17 Feb 17 at 4:08pm
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 3:12pm
I like your opinion on this one Maxibuddah.
Get over (being so damn needy of validation) the numbers and get on with sailing. 
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by iGRF

why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased.

Why? Because it is fun to have a race in large numbers, see how you are going against mates, sail in a different venue and to see other types of boats that you wouldn't normally see. I went to the Steamer last week for that exact reason and I enjoyed it, a lot, even though I stood no chance and got severely thrashed. Its called having fun. Perhaps if your sole reason for sailing is to win then you may have lost sight of the real prize - enjoyment.

I think that the H2 can bring back a lot of fun to sailing for a lot of people. It looks comfortable, obviously has a good turn of speed without the necessity of spending years of time learning to sail it. If I were lighter I might, but then for me the main problem is the cost, it is just too expensive. Its not too costly for what you get but it is a lot, especially for a new class. While RS might be a very professional outfit with the resources for a high profile marketing campaign, their boat fits nicely in the price range that didn't make it too much of a gamble to jump into a new class. That is a difficult nut to crack for Keith but I hope he does cos I love the look of the hull (not sure about the rig yet) and its a single handed Merlin, which I also love. Good luck
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by zeon



What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.


As a businessman involved in promoting his products on the internet, I'm well versed in what does and doesn't inspire people to think about a given product thanks, and trust me, nothing I've said or done on this thread has done anything other than to keep the thread up the page. Left to you lot as I will now, it'll slowly drop down and down into oblivion until you post some inane and often peurile attempt to revive it. Google Astroturfing then understand the technique of negative responses that provoke positive responses elsewhere.. there endeth the lesson.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by zeon

Originally posted by iGRF

The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.


GRF's products are routinely slated across the internet, usually by a user account with the same IP address as his office..... I guess at least people are talking about them though  Wink
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:34pm
I can't imagine an IRC for dinghies being in anyway more popular with punters, especially if you have to divulge personal statistics into the matrix like a Weight Watchers meeting.

FWIW - at least the PN system it's actually based on statistical sampling, not some black box formula which will forever stink of collusion and conspiracy amongst the outer-eschelons of its stakeholders.

It also makes 100% sense for a local organisation/ independent race office to take an EN and harshen-it-up a bit to prevent mass annoyance of a new bandit cleaning up.  At least the GL system is opening it up to these classes - it wasn't so long ago I didn't buy a boat simply because it meant there wasn't a chance of attending one of these events as it wouldn't have been accepted.

Given this is all hypothetical, the reverse could equally be feasible.... All of us pro-innovation and new classes types could form our own winter series, one which penalises duffer classes and annihilates anything even vaguely bareing this season's latest lip gloss.... we could start with making a real example of that new Ovington OK... disgraceful behaviour to take an old shed like that and try and make it look appealing.  I know one guy in the south west who actually says he likes it.... he's probably not even 40 yet FFS!  

But as Cirrus explains- most people are fairly indifferent to the whole PY thing.  A lot of sailors I know don't even really understand the basic mathematic principles in play with it... I certainly didn't for a long time.  All this pivoting around 1000 or making the Laser the 'benchmark' talk.... that's a completely different system folks, and sure as hell wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny the PYAG actually give to their data before making national recommendations.  

But whatever.... If handicap racing is so sh1te, or so rigged against oneself, there is a very simple solution.... find something else to do instead, after all, what are you really missing out on?  


Edited by turnturtle - 17 Feb 17 at 1:38pm
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zeon View Drop Down
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Posts: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

The D Zero tale exactly highlights my point, no way was it 1015 by any measure, no more than the H2 is 1015, I'd love to go up to oxford tomorrow and give it a go, but why participate in an event that is already stacked against you, what possible reason could make you travel all that way, either in your own boat or in someone elses when the stats are so biased. It is exactly why some organisation or body needs to get a grip of all this.

Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.
What rubbish and even if it wasn't can you please remember the builder and designer are trying to get people to try their new boat and your comments are not helping. As a business man your self, how would you feel if someone did that to your products.
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Keith_Callaghan View Drop Down
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Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Keith_Callaghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Handicaps need to be calculated scientifically by machine and maths, not bumbling bent buffers or axe grinding cottage industry spoilers and the Laser should be static for them to pivot about, something needs to anchor the whole charade.

Fortunately Graeme (for us designers at least) the science of aero-hydrodynamics has not yet reached the stage where a planing vessel's performance can be accurately predicted. I understand your antipathy towards handicap racing, but I believe that those involved in the handicapping are making the best of a difficult job and it suits many people to sail their chosen weapon in a handicap fleet.

Edited by Keith_Callaghan - 17 Feb 17 at 1:45pm
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