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Peter Barton View Drop Down
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Posts: 129 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National/Regional Circuits.
    Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 3:49pm
The Magic Marine RS Aero UK Southern Circuit 2016 was, like 2015, run as 3 separate fleets;

Originally posted by Peter Barton

Here is the report on the Magic Marine RS Aero UK Northern Circuit 2016;

Last autumn we were in two minds whether to form a separate Northern Circuit or not and I am so glad we did. I think making a circuit from a collection of events does add some focus and a bit of extra fun, although it won't make much difference to people attending unless they were going to anyway.

I don't think making a collection of events a circuit makes a great deal of difference as sailors are either able or want to go to an event independent of that. However I do think the interest added by combining to two Circuits centrally in the Midlands did help produce the larger end of season turnouts with sailors coming from as far afield as Yorkshire, the South and the East coasts at the end of the year.

Th RS Aero UK Northern Circuit was run as one results sheet in its first year, and just the second for the class, to support numbers which worked well. Many of the sailors taking part enjoyed the flexibility of choosing a rig suitable for a particular weekend's racing - increasing participation, enjoyment and ultimately safety. Those sticking with one rig enjoyed the extra participation.
 
The idea of that flexibility favouring lightweights is theory and like many concepts in sailing does not quite show through in practice. The theory only holds when the heavier sailor is underpowered in the 9 rig. Once the wind then drops beneath say 7kn sailor skill is likely to take more effect (if it hasn't already), so the theoretical advantage has a tiny range and still tinier likelihood of being prominent.

We have not yet seen the all conquering 50kg RS Aero 9 sailor step up in his or her shining armour yet, but when he or she does I (and I know others too) will welcome his or her challenge with open arms!


Edited by Peter Barton - 14 Nov 16 at 3:54pm
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:49am
As an inveterate tweaker I love the idea of adjustable everything and first encountered a raking rig on a mates Merlin "Hot Legs" (3330 I think), probably 20 years ago. Sadly with the Blaze they have elected to ban on the water adjustable rigs after an inordinate number of dismastings in the fleet (clearly not sufficiently mature on that boat then Embarrassed ). I guess I could revert to the 49er method demonstrated on the 'Higher and Faster" DVD but without trap wires to provide a purchase and another body to balance the boat I don't really fancy that (and it would probably get pretty expensive in lost overboard fast pins).

Regarding choosing the right sail, when I was racing windsurfers we had a saying, "if you only have one sail it must be the right one"..... In practice My Demon 7.5 VG5 race sail was considered competitive in 3-30 knots (Sean Cox. the designer's claim) I must admit to finding it a handful in much more than 20 knots but could usually complete the course in 25 if it picked up. I'd rather be on a more high wind design though if that happened. As a consequence I had some days where I chose wrong and it cost me places. All part of the game TBH and it did mean we got good racing in 3-30 knots.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 14 Nov 16 at 11:50am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Oinks

"As for 1 sail for all conditions, I know 1 dinghy that does it very nicely thank you and performs well across most conditions."

...but being massively outsold by the one that isn't "really true class racing".

LOL LOL LOL
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:09am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

#JohnJack, Obviously doable but pretty complex to get working reliably I'd have thought? And pretty much all dinghies have the facility to de-power with rake, just not on the water (or at least during a race). And it's probab;y less effective than same as changing for a significantly smaller (or larger) sail (especially as you have the same rake adjustments available with the smaller sail).


I believe the single string rake is now pretty mature in terms of development. The Merlins did it first IIRC and other classes that allow on the water raking have followed.

Pretty much so, there seems to be a decent standard design now and most systems are built to it. Once set up you have a loop in the boat, you pull it one way to pull the mast aft, pull it the other way to pull the mast back upright.

Agree the set up takes a bit of thinking out but once it's done you can forget about how it works, just concentrate on the fact it works

Allot of the lighter crew/helms in the Scorpion fleet usually sail with a little rake in normal conditions only going upright in very light winds.It much better than having to make a decision on the bank as to either have the big sail or the small sail then being out on the race course realising you made the wrong call whilst you are standing on your up turned hull

Certainly cheaper than having to sets of sails too

 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249,
At the risk of thread hijacking..... "yes but no but". There was little that happened by chance with Coronet and I would caution that not everything that is in the YW article may be taken as gospel. Even back then the 'law of vested interests' held sway.....
Although I've not had the final sign off on this, it looks as I will get the job of researching and then presenting the Proctor Centenary story around the UK in 2018 - much as I did in 2012 with the Holt Centenary. I'm already stuck into this story so have a reasonable perspective of things from Proctor's viewpoint. What is crucial to the story is not IP's comments, but the exchanges of correspondence with Peter Scott and others.... for that is where the story really lies!
D

I don't think or say that much of what happened with Coronet was by chance, and any use of an I-14 rig seems to sit pretty neatly with the story of the development from Coronet to 505, including Westell's article on it. As always, I'll be very interested to get your views. We are both interested in seriously studying the history, with you being more specialised at a certain country and time.

I don't take much as gospel....that's why at work we will do things like call in the forensic lab to examine dubious documents, or spend mind-numbing hours examining witnesses and scenes.  All the information we ever get has limitations, but either the whole wider story of dinghy history is left ignored, or we get on doing what we can with what is practical to get, such as detailed articles that are consistent with the other published information. 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

#JohnJack, Obviously doable but pretty complex to get working reliably I'd have thought? And pretty much all dinghies have the facility to de-power with rake, just not on the water (or at least during a race). And it's probab;y less effective than same as changing for a significantly smaller (or larger) sail (especially as you have the same rake adjustments available with the smaller sail).


I believe the single string rake is now pretty mature in terms of development. The Merlins did it first IIRC and other classes that allow on the water raking have followed.
Paul
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 10:05am
Chris 249,
At the risk of thread hijacking..... "yes but no but". There was little that happened by chance with Coronet and I would caution that not everything that is in the YW article may be taken as gospel. Even back then the 'law of vested interests' held sway.....
Although I've not had the final sign off on this, it looks as I will get the job of researching and then presenting the Proctor Centenary story around the UK in 2018 - much as I did in 2012 with the Holt Centenary. I'm already stuck into this story so have a reasonable perspective of things from Proctor's viewpoint. What is crucial to the story is not IP's comments, but the exchanges of correspondence with Peter Scott and others.... for that is where the story really lies!
D
Dougal H
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris J249,

I'm sorry but you're a bit off line there. yes, when Coronet was first launched, Max Johnson used John Westell's Int 14 rig because the 'new' rig wasn't yet ready. One of the reasons for the delay was that Westell was still experimenting - one example was that he only took the trapeze wire up to the inboard end of the spreader bracket. Not long after the boat was launched, it took part in the Round the Island dinghy race, where it came up against the prototype Osprey and some other new designs that were aimed at the Trials, such as Claude Nethercott's Marianne. Proctor had seen the value of the publicity that would come from winning the Race and had put a great deal of preparation into his rig, two forestays, one rigged with a genoa, the other with a jib (which brings the topic neatly back to multiple rigs).As they came along the back of the Island the wind was easterly, but with a west going ebb there is only one way to make progress; short tack along the shore. Proctor was sailing with an all star crew, 3 up - and had rigged the trapeze up to the hounds. Max Johnson, crewed by Westell struggled, finding it very hard to use the trapeze.
From the Island there was barely time to pack up before heading to La Baule and the Trials - where Coronet had her new rig and a correctly fitted trapeze, There is a lot more detail about how the Coronet rig came about (and what happened in the Trials....and what didn't happen, which is the real 'smoking gun') - this whole story, backed up by first person interviews and a great deal of private correspondence, now forms the opening Chapter of 'Simply the Best - the story of the 505' which is current the live project here in the office.

Interesting. I'm going off the Yachting World report of the trials, where there is a pic of Coronet showing a small main and the small jib tacked aft of the stem, and has a caption saying it's an Int 14 main. The article says that she only used full-size sails on a couple of days in the trials. 

Unfortunately, I can't find who wrote the article but it is certainly detailed. I had the impression that it may have been Proctor, who was writing for YW at the time and would be a very good authority. I'll see if I can find out next time I am near the Maritime Museum's library.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 12:26am
I suspect the reasons why multiple rigs are unusual in multi crew boats are two fold.

The first is that the amount of extra hardware and complication required for a single sail on drop in mast is so much less, and the second, related one, is that the cost of a drop in rig is so much less.

Interestingly the "is it one class, is it 3 classes" thing with the Laser and Aero may even help. I recall being told that one of the drawbacks of multiple rigs in skiffs was that if you picked the wrong rig and most people got the right one the race was more or less over before you started. With the singlehanders there may be more or fewer sailors in your class/division if you pick wrong, but at least you'll be in a race.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 11:03pm
#JohnJack, Obviously doable but pretty complex to get working reliably I'd have thought? And pretty much all dinghies have the facility to de-power with rake, just not on the water (or at least during a race). And it's probab;y less effective than same as changing for a significantly smaller (or larger) sail (especially as you have the same rake adjustments available with the smaller sail).

#RB, Not sure I agree, surely having different sizes of sails increases the weight range for a class regardless if they have one PN or multiple?

#Oinks, Most doublehanders haf restrictions on the number of sails you can use at a regatta, just like singlehanders. The few exceptions like 18' skiffs prove the rule maybe?



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 13 Nov 16 at 11:34pm
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