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    Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by jeffers


the D-Zero mast is incredible to watch in gusty conditions, it does a lot of the work for you as it bends off as the gust hits and then comes back as the boat accelerates and the pressure comes off the rig. Great work by all those windsurfer designers down the years constructing a system that only very lately became understood by a not quite as retarded dinghy sailor than the norm.
ftfy

It was what was so appealing when I first saw Dans rig on the Punk, you would have thought RS with their boardsailing experience might have achieved it earlier, but not so, only that rig and to a lessor degree the rig on the D1, which presumably because it has to be stiff enough to support a kite doesn't seem to have quite the magic of the Zero rig.

But they do also de power if you rake them, well de power in that the foil becomes less efficient and the c of e comes aft. Thats the joy of a race board, the rig doesn't move back, the foot goes forward so the c of e remains in balance with the c of r, and we then get a bonus of end plate effect.

I'd love to design a dinghy to work the same way, I reckon it could be perfect.

The aero does depower very well. I was a little cynical with the rig and sail combo initially but it works very well. I still think the potential for increase drag with any fathead sail is there once the righting moment has been overcome. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 4:04pm
Hi Grf
The dutchman compensates for rake by sliding the board aft. So it can be done.
On centre board boats you just tip the blade which moves the centre of effort aft to match the rig and reduces the size of the board which when going fast you need less off.
This is I understand it so could be complete boxxocks of course!
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by jeffers


the D-Zero mast is incredible to watch in gusty conditions, it does a lot of the work for you as it bends off as the gust hits and then comes back as the boat accelerates and the pressure comes off the rig. Great work by all those windsurfer designers down the years constructing a system that only very lately became understood by a not quite as retarded dinghy sailor than the norm.
ftfy

It was what was so appealing when I first saw Dans rig on the Punk, you would have thought RS with their boardsailing experience might have achieved it earlier, but not so, only that rig and to a lessor degree the rig on the D1, which presumably because it has to be stiff enough to support a kite doesn't seem to have quite the magic of the Zero rig.

But they do also de power if you rake them, well de power in that the foil becomes less efficient and the c of e comes aft. Thats the joy of a race board, the rig doesn't move back, the foot goes forward so the c of e remains in balance with the c of r, and we then get a bonus of end plate effect.

I'd love to design a dinghy to work the same way, I reckon it could be perfect.

Edited by iGRF - 16 Feb 16 at 3:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 12:38pm
The zero does have a bit more flexibility with mast chocks, although not sure how effective they would been given your points on unstayed rigs. With all boats that have different size sails your own personal weight has an impact. I sit on the cusp between the  aero 7 and 9 so perhaps notice the step more than most. I kept wanting an 8m2  LOL but I am sure that more time in the boat will iron that out..

Back to the Hadron, its nice to see a beamy design with higher topsides again. Yes there is a slight weight penalty for more materials, but it looks good for the knees. Two points which get real ticks are the capsize with the boat well immersed in the water so shouldn't separate from the sailor, with the centreboard at water level. The second is the central chamber and thwart so can stay off the knees downwind in the light. I am sure it will carve yet another niche.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

.

On the Hadron it appears to have an adjustable forestay, allowing the rig to depower like a supernova. In which case it would carry its sail size across a wider range than on a static rig without having to let the head bend off continuously.



Stayed rigs depower differently that unstayed rigs though. An unstayed mast is generally more flexible (in my experience) and will bend differently due to the differing (lack of) support. This is why Rake is a more key control on a stayed rig for depowering than it is on an unstayed rig.

Again I could be talking rubbish but this is how understand it.

Not sure on the Aero mast/rig but the D-Zero mast is incredible to watch in gusty conditions, it does a lot of the work for you as it bends off as the gust hits and then comes back as the boat accelerates and the pressure comes off the rig. Great work by Devoti, Dan, Compotech and North.

By comparison the Blaze M7 mast (which was the section in use prior to the advent of carbon sticks) was incredibly stiff and increasing rake didn't really make much difference given that the rig was setup with very little tension (so you could 'rake' but sheeting on and then offwind the mast would go more upright).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

but as wind speed goes up and you rely on the head bending off, this must translate into constant drag.


Not so much if the rig is good enough I think. AIUI if the topmast bends enough to take all the fullness out of the top so its board flat, and the battens in the middle of the sail hold the mid leech up then the top section is acting as an end plate to control the tip vortex and massively reduce induced drag.
But if you've got a silly semi soft sail with nothing to hold up the mid leech then its not going to work...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 16 at 11:42am
Aero sailor jumping in ..... Evil Smile
lightness around the boat park blah blah...

The fathead sails have made me think as to whether they can be efficient with drag. I totally understand the gust response, but as wind speed goes up and you rely on the head bending off, this must translate into constant drag. Does that mean that a sail without fathead can operate in more wind range with less drag as at is a smoother bleed off? 

Purely on my own experience in the aero, which has a slight fathead to the sail, there is a definite step between sail sizes. i.e at the top end of a sail size its noticeably quicker than the next size down, but add three knots and its noticeably slower when the head is allowed to fall off. Choosing your largest sail size for a series over several weeks is therefore complex.

On the Hadron it appears to have an adjustable forestay, allowing the rig to depower like a supernova. In which case it would carry its sail size across a wider range than on a static rig without having to let the head bend off continuously.

I may be just talking b****cks of course  LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Quote realnutter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 16 at 10:14pm
iGRF.. If that "big fat head" worries you..........

Get a Sunfish!

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 16 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by AlexM

Nice big powerful cunningham required :)
Looks good

I think you'd need a lot less cunningham than me Al


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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 16 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by fab100


Originally posted by iGRF

 ...it's one thing handling the bloody things on the water, but hauling their nasty arses around boat parks and up slipways...
It seems to me that the thing that would most change your sailing life is nothing to do with the boat or rig but a waterproof, motorised trolley with fat wheels that do not sink into mud, sand or shingle. Add an 'auto' button to drive itself back up the beach after launching and you'd be sorted.
Surely there is now some bike-tech you could adapt - did someone not get caught hiding a motor in a road-race bike recently?
 


What would change my life would be a boat lackey, they're normally called crew, but when they go and crock their backs as well, you're in trouble. Yes somebody did recently get caught with an electric assist crank, battery hidden in the down tube, engine in the crank, roadie of course, where else do you get cheats?

Edited by iGRF - 15 Feb 16 at 6:21pm
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