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Bad Back issues & Bowen Treatment |
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bustinben 
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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 Topic: Bad Back issues & Bowen TreatmentPosted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:20pm |
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Feel free to point out where... Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.
So far so good. Bloke feels better, life is good.
Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground. I'll grant you a pass on that for now...
Aaaand now I won't. No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case. you have no idea what worked. I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation. All you know is this: 1. man felt sick 2. man lived his life for a few weeks 3. man feels better There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3. You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case. You have no idea that it did. Neither does he. Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.
Good, neither am I. What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong. You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone. Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.
Edited by bustinben - 21 Dec 15 at 3:29pm |
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turnturtle
Really should get out more 
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:05pm |
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Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.
My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain. Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received. The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it. I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on. My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.
Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 3:06pm |
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bustinben
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:53pm |
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That was my point... It could well have been placebo and not actually the treatment. It seems you agree with me after all. Hurrah he's better! Even if it was placebo, I doubt it makes any difference to him, he'll be just as happy. Doesn't mean you can start claiming that bowen works and we should all rise up against mainstream medicine. All you could possibly claim is that placebo works, and we all knew that anyway. How do we know? Because the same scientific methods used to prove/disprove the claims in mainstream medicine have been used to prove that it does. On to your second point... I'm not the one who's claiming anything, so it's not up to me to prove anything. I'm just pointing out the flaws in people's reasoning. Regardless, I did just throw reasonable doubt on the fact that it was the treatment and not the toffee crisp/over-ripe avocado he allegedly ate. Unless you now have anything to add that removes that doubt, the doubt remains and the point I was trying to make, is made.
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turnturtle
Really should get out more
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:33pm |
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mate, there's clinical research to suggest a placebo is as a good as a cure if care to hunt the evidence on the internet hard enough. But you prove the guy who claims to feel better from it is 'wrong' before I justify he's right, which he is, if he feel better for it, who the hell are we to tell him it was probably the Toffee Crisp in the waiting room, not the treatment he's received?
Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 2:38pm |
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bustinben
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:26pm |
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And how does the chap who is reporting this first hand account have any idea that the benefit he noticed can actually be attributed to the treatment in question and not something else? Perhaps he was going to get better anyway. Perhaps he ate an over-ripe avocado and over-ripe avocado happens to contain a previously undiscovered cure for his condition. Perhaps an earlier treatement he tried and decided doesn't work, actually did work. I'm not saying he's doing it with malicious intent but the fact is, there is no evidence of any connection between the two events. Maybe I'm wrong... feel free to point out where the proof is  Edited by bustinben - 21 Dec 15 at 2:29pm |
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turnturtle
Really should get out more
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 1:36pm |
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apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit? OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.
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turnturtle
Really should get out more
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 1:33pm |
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that one wasn't antagonistic... peer-to-peer advice is often some of the best we can receive in life. Yet when it comes to health and nutrition, we can so easily get blinded by science. We default to a position of trusting educated 'experts', many of whom may not have first hand experience of either the ailment or the alternative treatment. Sure, I'm not saying the entire medical industry is full of crooks and charlatans, but do me a favour - trust them? Pharma companies, the NHS and the GPs on kick backs.... no thanks.
Besides someone saying something worked for them, is not the same as them saying 'it will cure you'. My conclusion on something like this, I wouldn't knock it till I tried it.
Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 1:34pm |
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ventus
Groupie 
Joined: 10 Jul 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:54pm |
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Must say it's nice to see you and grf are back your antagonistic best. Your and especially grfs posts have been so balanced and reasonable in the last few weeks, that I just assumed that your accounts had been hacked.
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bustinben
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:22pm |
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Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. Anecdotes are worse than useless when it comes to making decisions on treatments. The advice: "There's a therapy that I think might work for you, here are some studies that show how and when it's effective and why" would be helpful. "My dog's brother was cured of cancer by visiting a chi alignment specialist, you'd be mad to trust the NHS" is what is not helpful. There's an important distinction between these two.
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turnturtle
Really should get out more
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 12:06pm |
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How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?
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