Rule 19 question

Jim,

Originally posted by JimC Silly of me to cross swords with you Brass, but the rule says unable to give room at the time the overlap began. It doesn't say anything about when the obstruction starts to exist. So you could say that at no time since the overlap started has it been possible to give water to get through a 10 ft wide (or whatever) gap, even if the 10ft wide gap didn't exist when the overlap started. Its a bit logic chopping, but you also have to consider that gaps like that grow and shrink. It makes more sense to only consider the gap from the time the boats approach it, because otherwise, to extrapolate what you've said, the boats might even have to evaluate a gap (say between two boats that anchored up) that was out of sight when the overlap began and there's no way to say whether egg or hen came first... And ultimately, the concept of the rule is that if you can give room you must, but if you cannot then you needn't, which is a thread through several rules and interpreting the gap as being when the boats approach it matches that concept...

You're welcome to cross swords with me any time.   That's what discussion is all about, unlike whatever it is some people have on SA.

I realize it's a welter of double negatives, but I think it's logically valid that if an obstruction does not exist at a point in time (when the running boats become overlapped), it cannot be said that one of those boats is unable to give the other room to pass the (nonexistent) obstruction, so the exclusion in rule 19.1( b ) does not apply.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that rule 19 doesn't deal well with obstructions that switch on and off, and move, but it's the rule we have to live with.

The rule does not consider whether the space available grows or shrinks, it directs us to consider a snapshot at the time the overlap began. It does not require us to consider anything about when boats are approaching the obstruction, regardless of what we may think makes sense.

The rule does not address what boats might need to evaluate, rather it indicates facts a protest committee would need to find to decide a protest.

As judges applying the rules, we shouldn't go searching after the concepts or intentions of the rules: we have to stick with the words of the rules.

And rule 19 certainly doesn't say 'if you can't give room you needn't.   It very specifically puts the test when the overlap began.

Yes, a whole line of obstructions. At which point the solution is to go head to wind, sit in the bottom of the boat and cry, I believe.

Originally posted by jeffers  Correct. but say the boat on starboard were overlapped or much closer tigether still 2 boats but then I am sure they would only count as 1 obstruction as there is no way to safely pass between them.

Originally posted by Presuming Ed Originally posted by jeffers   So the follow up question is do both boats get classed as 1 obstruction (as there is not room between them for both boats to pass) or 2 separate obstructions? An obstruction is "_AN_ object" i.e. a single object. 2 boats, 2 obstructions.  Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 23 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.