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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by flaming

Ok, so the consensus seems to be that in the event of a valid protest from blue yellow is in trouble.  

However, what I can't see is, by the rules, why Blue's right to room as inside boat on red is trumping Yellow's right to room as inside boat on green?

That's the problem. 

Personally, whatever I decided, I'd send it upstairs to the RRC under 70.2 for confirmation. 
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by jeffers

 
So the follow up question is do both boats get classed as 1 obstruction (as there is not room between them for both boats to pass) or 2 separate obstructions?

An obstruction is "_AN_ object" i.e. a single object. 2 boats, 2 obstructions. 

Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 23 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by flaming

Ok, so the consensus seems to be that in the event of a valid protest from blue yellow is in trouble.  

However, what I can't see is, by the rules, why Blue's right to room as inside boat on red is trumping Yellow's right to room as inside boat on green?

It is because Yellow has the choice which side of the obstruction to pass. As she chose to pass astern of Red she must also allow room for Blue to pass astern (Case 11). 

As she cannot now go through the gap because it was not big enough for both boats she effectively has no choice other than to pass astern of Green as well. 

She cannot choose to pass ahead of Green as Blue in taking the room she is entitled to in order to pass astern of Red. So she either needs to pass astern of Green as well or take herself and Blue across the bow of Red (a risky proposition).

In theory both boats would pass astern of Green but Blue could elect to go through the gap as long as she keeps clear Green.

I think that sounds about right.

The thinking man would have seen this developing and Yellow might have gone a bit lower a bit sooner to pass astern of Green and thus minimise the loss or perhaps make a gain as thy come back up to their correct course after the duck.


Edited by jeffers - 06 Oct 15 at 4:52pm
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 3:22pm
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that in the event of a valid protest from blue yellow is in trouble.  

However, what I can't see is, by the rules, why Blue's right to room as inside boat on red is trumping Yellow's right to room as inside boat on green?
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by GML

Originally posted by jeffers

I guess it may hinge on whether a line of Stv tackers would be considered a continuing obstruction in this case.

From definition of "Obstruction" in the RRS: "A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction."

D'oh schoolboy error there from me, should have checked that particular definition.  

So the follow up question is do both boats get classed as 1 obstruction (as there is not room between them for both boats to pass) or 2 separate obstructions?

Either way, subject to 19.2b and the timing of the tack of Green I still think Yellow is required to give blue room. I do think 19.2b is unlikely to feature as well given that we are talking about 40foot boats under spinnaker so unless they had just rounded a mark this is unlikely to come in to play.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by jeffers

I guess it may hinge on whether a line of Stv tackers would be considered a continuing obstruction in this case.

From definition of "Obstruction" in the RRS: "A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction."
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by PeterG

My take on this is that if Yellow chooses to pass astern of red she is required to allow blue enough room to also pass astern of red. If she cannot do this then she must also pass astern of Green. Remember that Blue does not have to anticipate that Yellow is not going to give her room (and is not required to hail as she is not needing to tack to avoid). 

That seems like the correct course. However, that blighter Blue is then free to nip through the gap between Red and Green, causing all sorts of ill feeling! Nothing really to stop it happening is there? Yellow has to leave Blue room to pass behind Green, nothing says they have to use it, does it? And what if Yellow has to duck a string after Green, while Blue nips the gap and ends up in the distance. Yellow presumably just have to live with that? 

As Yellow has the choice which side they pass of the obstruction then the correct tactical choice would be to pass ahead as long as they can do so without impinging red. The rules say if they choose to pass astern an inside overlapped boat is then entitled to room. We come back to 19.2b..... 

I certainly wouldn't fancy sitting on a PC trying to sort that out! Case 11 in the casebook may provide some guidance though. I guess it may hinge on whether a line of Stv tackers would be considered a continuing obstruction in this case. As the OP pointed out there was sufficient space behind the second Stb boat for both boats to pass. 

I would say that Blue going through the gap between red and green is a risk that Yellow has to take. If blue didnt pull it off then they failed to keep clear.

On congested 'round the cans' dinghy courses this happens quite a lot. I usually make a call as to whatever will lose me the least time (or gain me the most time). Usually this is the option where there is less messing around with other boats.
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 2:04pm
My take on this is that if Yellow chooses to pass astern of red she is required to allow blue enough room to also pass astern of red. If she cannot do this then she must also pass astern of Green. Remember that Blue does not have to anticipate that Yellow is not going to give her room (and is not required to hail as she is not needing to tack to avoid). 

That seems like the correct course. However, that blighter Blue is then free to nip through the gap between Red and Green, causing all sorts of ill feeling! Nothing really to stop it happening is there? Yellow has to leave Blue room to pass behind Green, nothing says they have to use it, does it? And what if Yellow has to duck a string after Green, while Blue nips the gap and ends up in the distance. Yellow presumably just have to live with that? 
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 12:45pm
I didn't say it developed faster than we could anticipate.  I said it developed faster than I DID anticipate!  I'm not saying I got this one right, just trying to learn from a situation.

I know that neither I, nor the helm of the other boat, had assessed the gap as too small for both of us until we were really too close to do anything but go through regardless.  Why that is I'm not sure, though I have a suspicion that the way my mind interpreted the scale might have had an impact, as the boats going upwind were significantly smaller.  Meaning a 2 boatlength gap between the upwind boats might have looked ok if your brain is assuming that they are bigger than they actually are.  

My question on your take on it would be,  Why would it be that way round?  Why is it not that if Blue cannot give yellow room to pass ahead of green and still pass behind red she must pass in front of red? After all if that was the only hole in the traffic the ROW boat just lost out in a big way.  

I'm not trying to prove myself right btw, just understand the rules more fully.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 12:21pm
I am rather surprised as the comment of 'the situation developed faster than we could anticipate'. This implies that either:

1) Neither of the running boats were keeping a proper watch out for the stb close hauled boats

or

2) The boats on stb were on port and tacked in such a manner that the now keep clear boats could not keep clear.

There are far too many times I see situations developing and then a mark or obstruction is reached and people use the 'I didn't have time' to respond when in reality they should have seen the situation developing and made a plan of started to fulfil their room obligations way before it became apparent that they could not..

My take on this is that if Yellow chooses to pass astern of red she is required to allow blue enough room to also pass astern of red. If she cannot do this then she must also pass astern of Green. Remember that Blue does not have to anticipate that Yellow is not going to give her room (and is not required to hail as she is not needing to tack to avoid). 

As Brass said it all hinges on 19.2 (b) but I would suspect that unless Green has just tacked on to stb (at which point she is required to give the keep clear boats time to keep clear as per rule 15) then this may have been a relatively stable situation at which point things become clearer.
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