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    Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 7:55am
The voice of reason. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 3:55am
I think, too, that we can assume that sail design has progressed a lot since the Laser rag was designed. The biggest problem I see with all short batten sails is batten end distortion, and although Laser sails do it quite badly I have seen some quite dreadful laminate sails. Indeed I believe the National 12s changed their rules because they were experiencing problems. I believe that aspects of sail design have at least as much to do with durability as material choice.

So all this really does seem to be quite ridiculous speculative knocking. As I've said before I'm quite sure that RS picked the rags that came out as best in their development programme, and if dacron rags came out as better it would be pretty damn silly to fit laminate ones now wouldn't it...

And if they wanted the cheapest possible material then AIUI the sails would have been monofilm, not Dacron, and if they had picked that I bet any number of people would probably be saying how wonderful and forward looking they were.



Edited by JimC - 20 Feb 15 at 3:58am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by Chris 249



Originally posted by Chris 249




[QUOTE=rich96]The lightweight laser sails needed to be changed for major events (regardless of what is/was claimed). They were hopeless in that regard.

unless you're talking about the sails from the '70s and early '80s, Laser sails don't "need" to be changed unless you are in the top few percent of the fleet, and by definition few are.
Some of us have cubes that indicate that we may not be fools when it comes to Lasers, and I'm not sure we're liars when we say most people don't need to change sails as often as some say.....



Exactly my point - the upper end of the fleet changed sails very regularly - you don't do that in many classes.

In most classes you don't find club racers also changing their sails as often as you do in the Laser fleet (those that sail most weeks).

There will no doubt be some examples that disprove this but essentially its fairly accurate to say that Laser sails are changed more than many other class sails.

No sure what "liars" have got to do with it (?) but my point is simple really - Laser sails don't last very well if used regularly. Its not really news to anyone.



 
When you say "regardless of what is claimed" on a subject that has been the subject of so much discussion here it can appear that you're dissing the views of other posters.
 
There's lots of reasonable viewpoints on the topic IMHO, since none of us are really defining what we mean by "need replacing" or "don't last". Does the average sailor really "need" a new sail when they are normally starting poorly quite often, missing shifts, capsizing and generally losing much more time due to mistakes than due to their old sail?  Does a former champ really "need" a new sail when they are low on form due to lack of training?
 
And when Olympic medallists and world champs are on form they can use an older sail and still win against good 'amateurs', so arguably the older sail is lasting as well as it needs to. In every class I know, sails a few years old can get to the top 13% of the title pack -  even in Lasers, years ago my brother had just 1 borrowed sail and one new sail throughout a career that took him to a national Youth title and top 25 in the Open Standard worlds.
 
Sure, some people get lots of new sails but in every class there are people who just love spending money and some of them say that Lasers are so cheap to run there's no reason not to get new sails regularly.
 
Surely similar issues apply to the *eros, and to any discussion about how long sails will last in any class.
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Feb 15 at 10:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 7:52pm
I dunno. There are similarities. Lots of kicker stretching the sail on the Aero. But the cloth is undoubtedly better. How long do OK sails stay competitive?
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 7:40pm
Exactly Rupert.  Thumbs Up
As I said on 13th Feb, why keep banging about Laser sails when the two are as different as chalk n cheese.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 7:31pm
Yes, but you seem a little fixated on the idea that you can compare it to the Laser sail and get meaningful info.

A slack rigged Firefly sail is going to be as valid a comparison to the Aero as a scaffold pole Laser rig.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I did. Dacron sails, la de da.


Well done ! Now you know what this has to do with the Aero !
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 4:58pm
I did. Dacron sails, la de da.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Rupert



Not sure what it has to do with the Aero,.


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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I dunno, the Laser sailors I race against use a sail for several years, just as I do in the Lightning. "Top end" Laser sailors, sailing the boat 6 days a week, will of course get through sails, but that is true of any class.

Not sure what it has to do with the Aero, as other Dacron sails (my Firefly ones, for instance) will last for years without showing too much wear, on the mainsail, anyway.


The post above talks about unstayed rigs - so nothing to do with Fireflies etc ?

'lasting' and 'performing' are two entirely different things - i.e 'showing wear' is not what I'm on about.

I bored now !



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