Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules

The evnts are rael but the names have been cleverly disguised to hide the identity!!!!

Originally posted by gordon However, the SI quoted is an attempt to modify RRS 22.1. This is specifically prohibited by RRS 86.1(b) (unless there is specific authorisation from ISAF or, in limited circumstances, from the MNA). The SI is thus void, and the Protest Committee should announce this in their judgement.

Disagree.

The SI is: "Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall keep clear of the starting area and of all boats whose warning signal has been made. Attention is drawn to RRS22.1"

22.1 is: 22.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.

The SI in no way modifies 22.1. It's perfectly possible to obey both the SI - by keeping clear of the starting area before the relevant warning signal, and to obey 22.1 by not interfering with a boat that is not racing.

In fact, from the OP: Boat A has missed her start and is approximately 200m downwind of the start line 90 seconds after her starting signal, sailing close hauled on port tack.

Boat B is obeying the SI - 200m away from the start line is, in any book, keeping clear, (assuming we're not talking maxis). The SI is irrelevant. The only rule that apply are 22.1 and 10.

Doesn't matter. By any definition - unless you're in super maxis, 200m is not in the starting area. For a laser, it's what - 50 boatlengths. For a 10m boat, it's still 20 boatlengths.

22.1 and 10 can both apply. The boat on S can interfere with a boat on P. And a boat on P can fail to keep clear of a boat on S.

Originally posted by JimC Originally posted by Presuming Ed Doesn't matter. By any definition - unless you're in super maxis, 200m is not in the starting area. I'm not at all sure I agree with you. I was having this discussion with the Sailing secretary at my club, because starting area is also relevent to DNS/DNC which scores differently for our club series, and we came to the conclusion that for our purposes the entire reservoir constitutes the starting area. What are you using as the basis for that definition? I haven't spotted anything in a quick trawl of the casebook and the definitions. I think I'd define the starting area as the bit of water where boats tend to mill around before the start or between races.

So then all boats that have started have rights over non starters.  Port and Stbd will then be secondary to started / not started - scary.  I can see a lot of collisions.  I'd suggest a starting area would be close to the line.  Afterall, you are starting (well should be) from an area close to the start line.  In the absence of a definition I would suggest using an oval that extends (perhaps) 50% of line length out in all directions from the line.  Outside this area you are sailing, not starting (or preparing to start).

Originally posted by JimC I'm not at all sure I agree with you. I was having this discussion with the Sailing secretary at my club, because starting area is also relevent to DNS/DNC which scores differently for our club series, and we came to the conclusion that for our purposes the entire reservoir constitutes the starting area. What are you using as the basis for that definition? I haven't spotted anything in a quick trawl of the casebook and the definitions. I think I'd define the starting area as the bit of water where boats tend to mill around before the start or between races.

IMHO, the whole starting area bit of the discussion is a chimera.

Pramable to part 2: The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1. When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. However, an alleged breach of those rules shall not be grounds for a protest except by the race committee or protest committee. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.

So in the case of a resevoir, and the normal course takes up the whole of the resevoir, then part 2 rules apply from pretty much the time when you go afloat - you're sailing in the racing area, and intending to race.

Normally, it doesn't matter that you're no longer sailing under IRPCS, but sailing under RRS instead, because in the most part, there is effectively no difference in the way that to boats are required to keep clear of each other. The one thing that the RRS has - which IRCPS hasn't - is rule 18 - which doesn't apply at the start.

200m is 1min 30 seconds away from the line at 5kts. I would argue that if you're within one and a half minutes of the start line and you're intending to race, then you fall under the requirements of the preamble to part 2.

And as soon as that happens, P has to comply with 10 (which she may well have not in this case) and S comply with 22.1 (again, which she may well have not here).