New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules
    Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 5:05pm

And all this just illustrates that if we can't agree, with rule books to hand and a warm office, desk and brew, what chance did Boat B have of working out that he was the Give Way boat, especially in view of Presuming Ed's post above.

And let me give you a hypothetical situation.  Boat B is hove to on starboard tack (perfectly safe and reasonable bearing in mind the time to run to his start.  Is it now "reasonably possible" for him to, as give way boat to avoid Boat A?

More to the point what sort of qualifying adverb is reasonably?  It either is or isn't possible.  Does reasonably refer to the amount of effort involved?  Or the time?

Badly written sailing instructions which placed Boat B in jeopardy - and no-one should find against him (and I don't confine that to my hove to postulation) - protest committee or insurance company.

Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 6:04pm

The "reasonably possible" you object to is in the RRS, not the SIs.

What chance did boat B have? Well, he could have asked. Or he could have thought: here's a boat hiking hard - it looks like they are racing. It really isn't hard, 90% of the time, to tell the difference between a boat racing and one than isn't.

By the way I once saw a major collision quite similar to this between a yacht who was racing and a keelboat having their lunch between races. I don't think anyone who witnessed would have disagreed that both parties needed to be more aware what was going on around them. It's all too easy to switch off.  

 

Back to Top
Stuart O View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Jul 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 514
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 6:38pm

Ignore what the thoughts of the boats are and go back to the question, although I do agree that observation would help make a judgement call, which should take precidence the SIs or RRS in this case?

In the case mentioned the SIs rewrote part 2 contradicting 86.1, whatever there intention (clarity I would guess), therefore the SIs are NOT valid so the RRS take precidence. Thus creating confusion!!!



Edited by Stuart O
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 7:11pm

There is confusion between the simple obligations of rule 10 and the more nuanced requirements of 22.1 but I don't agree that the wording of the SIs adds to it. We could be having exactly the same debate if the SIs said nothing at all on the subject.

Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 9:22am

Stefan,

 

I resally can't agree with you that "it really isn't hard to tell the difference between a boat that's racing and one that isn't".  But even if I did I would still say that as the right of way boat (and clearly within an obligation to keep aware and act sensibly) Boat B should stand on until it is apparent that its time to avoid a collision - or until it becomes apparent that Boat A has rights he is exerting as a racing boat.  Therefore its Boat A's problem to make sure Boat B knows that he is exerting those rights no matter what SIs, RRS etc say about rights of boats racing (and clearly remembering the responsibility to avoid a collision).  I see where you are and others are coming from on a theoretical basis, but there is a question of practicality on the water.

Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 9:49am
In terms of "practicality on the water", with the kind of sailing I mostly do, this kind of problem comes up frequently. If you race off Cowes or on the Hillhead plateau, almost invariably you are sharing your racing space with other classes and more often that not with other regattas too.
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 10:23am

Yes - I know what you mean as a Stokes Bay member we're more protected but it can still be an issue.

But that only makes you more aware - it does not change the fact that Boat B in the scenario described has no way of "knowing" that he is the give way boat, and therefore shaping his response appropriately, with an attendant risk in not standing on and altering course unpredictably.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Noble Marine



<p style="font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;"
="Msonormal">An interesting case has just been raised in
discussions
relating to a claim.  I'd be interested to learn the thoughts of any rules
gurus.
The situation is as follows:



<p style="font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;"
="Msonormal">The Sailing Instructions of a regatta contained
the following:
"Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall keep clear of the
starting area and of all boats whose warning signal has been made.
Attention is
drawn to RRS22.1
"
Boat A has missed her start and is approximately 200m downwind of the
start
line 90 seconds after her starting signal, sailing close hauled on port tack.
Boat B is sailing in a different fleet awaiting her preparatory signal, sailing
on starboard tack.
As the two boats approach, boat A hails "We are racing", boat B
"Hails starboard".  Boat A attempts to take avoiding action, but
fails and a collision occurs.



<span style="font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-
serif;">Obviously if both boats were racing, boat A should keep
clear as per RRS10, but as Boat B is not
yet racing, she should keep clear of boat whose warning signal has been
made,
as per the sailing instructions.</span><br style="font-family:
Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">


<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman";"><br style="font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-
serif;"><span style="font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">My
question to the forum is - When the Sailing
Instructions and the Racing Rules are in conflict, which should take
precedent?</span>
 
<span style=""></span></span>


My three happorth, whatever the sailing instructions might say and
wether morally it was wrong for boat b to hail starboard, once hailed Boat
A must take avoiding action.

It used to happen to us windsurfers all the time, we could hail til we're
blue in the face but boats seldom give way to windsurfers racing or not.

But in this case it's not the action of the boat not racing being on
starboard, it's the fact he/she hailed a warning. Simply put, whatever the
reason for the hail, and there could be any number of reasons for the hail
including ignorance and just plain curmudgeon, it has to be obeyed on
open water, there could be other issues.

It's a simple fundamental rule that sailing instructions do not take
precedence over. Unless there's been some other recent case which I
could hardly imagine any amount of publicity would circulate widely
enough to propagate.
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 2:00pm
GRF - Exactly what I'm getting at.
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 07 at 2:56pm
The RRS and the sailing instructions are both rules as per the RRS definition. Unless the SIs specifically state that the SIs take precedence over the RRS, or vive versa, then neither has precedence. They, and all the other sources of the rules apply equally.

However, the SI quoted is an attempt to modify RRS 22.1. This is specifically prohibited by RRS 86.1(b) (unless there is specific authorisation from ISAF or, in limited circumstances, from the MNA). The SI is thus void, and the Protest Committee should announce this in their judgement.

RRS 22.1 applies - the PC will have to decide if it was reasonably possible for the Starboard boat not ot interfere with Port boat:

either it was reasonably possible in which case Starboard infringed RRS 22.1 and should be penalised;

or it was not reasonably possible in which case Port infringed RRS 10.

As I believe there was both contact and damage the appropriate penalty is disqualification. There may be grounds for redress under 62.1(b)

Gordon


Gordon
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy