Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 5:05pm |
And all this just illustrates that if we can't agree, with rule books to hand and a warm office, desk and brew, what chance did Boat B have of working out that he was the Give Way boat, especially in view of Presuming Ed's post above. And let me give you a hypothetical situation. Boat B is hove to on starboard tack (perfectly safe and reasonable bearing in mind the time to run to his start. Is it now "reasonably possible" for him to, as give way boat to avoid Boat A? More to the point what sort of qualifying adverb is reasonably? It either is or isn't possible. Does reasonably refer to the amount of effort involved? Or the time? Badly written sailing instructions which placed Boat B in jeopardy - and no-one should find against him (and I don't confine that to my hove to postulation) - protest committee or insurance company. |
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Stefan Lloyd ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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The "reasonably possible" you object to is in the RRS, not the SIs. What chance did boat B have? Well, he could have asked. Or he could have thought: here's a boat hiking hard - it looks like they are racing. It really isn't hard, 90% of the time, to tell the difference between a boat racing and one than isn't. By the way I once saw a major collision quite similar to this between a yacht who was racing and a keelboat having their lunch between races. I don't think anyone who witnessed would have disagreed that both parties needed to be more aware what was going on around them. It's all too easy to switch off.
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Stuart O ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Ignore what the thoughts of the boats are and go back to the question, although I do agree that observation would help make a judgement call, which should take precidence the SIs or RRS in this case? In the case mentioned the SIs rewrote part 2 contradicting 86.1, whatever there intention (clarity I would guess), therefore the SIs are NOT valid so the RRS take precidence. Thus creating confusion!!! Edited by Stuart O |
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Stefan Lloyd ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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There is confusion between the simple obligations of rule 10 and the more nuanced requirements of 22.1 but I don't agree that the wording of the SIs adds to it. We could be having exactly the same debate if the SIs said nothing at all on the subject. |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Stefan,
I resally can't agree with you that "it really isn't hard to tell the difference between a boat that's racing and one that isn't". But even if I did I would still say that as the right of way boat (and clearly within an obligation to keep aware and act sensibly) Boat B should stand on until it is apparent that its time to avoid a collision - or until it becomes apparent that Boat A has rights he is exerting as a racing boat. Therefore its Boat A's problem to make sure Boat B knows that he is exerting those rights no matter what SIs, RRS etc say about rights of boats racing (and clearly remembering the responsibility to avoid a collision). I see where you are and others are coming from on a theoretical basis, but there is a question of practicality on the water. |
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Stefan Lloyd ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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In terms of "practicality on the water", with the kind of sailing I mostly do, this kind of problem comes up frequently. If you race off Cowes or on the Hillhead plateau, almost invariably you are sharing your racing space with other classes and more often that not with other regattas too.
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Yes - I know what you mean as a Stokes Bay member we're more protected but it can still be an issue. But that only makes you more aware - it does not change the fact that Boat B in the scenario described has no way of "knowing" that he is the give way boat, and therefore shaping his response appropriately, with an attendant risk in not standing on and altering course unpredictably. |
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My three happorth, whatever the sailing instructions might say and wether morally it was wrong for boat b to hail starboard, once hailed Boat A must take avoiding action. It used to happen to us windsurfers all the time, we could hail til we're blue in the face but boats seldom give way to windsurfers racing or not. But in this case it's not the action of the boat not racing being on starboard, it's the fact he/she hailed a warning. Simply put, whatever the reason for the hail, and there could be any number of reasons for the hail including ignorance and just plain curmudgeon, it has to be obeyed on open water, there could be other issues. It's a simple fundamental rule that sailing instructions do not take precedence over. Unless there's been some other recent case which I could hardly imagine any amount of publicity would circulate widely enough to propagate. |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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GRF - Exactly what I'm getting at.
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gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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The RRS and the sailing instructions are both rules as per the RRS definition. Unless the SIs specifically state that the SIs take precedence over the RRS, or vive versa, then neither has precedence. They, and all the other sources of the rules apply equally.
However, the SI quoted is an attempt to modify RRS 22.1. This is specifically prohibited by RRS 86.1(b) (unless there is specific authorisation from ISAF or, in limited circumstances, from the MNA). The SI is thus void, and the Protest Committee should announce this in their judgement. RRS 22.1 applies - the PC will have to decide if it was reasonably possible for the Starboard boat not ot interfere with Port boat: either it was reasonably possible in which case Starboard infringed RRS 22.1 and should be penalised; or it was not reasonably possible in which case Port infringed RRS 10. As I believe there was both contact and damage the appropriate penalty is disqualification. There may be grounds for redress under 62.1(b) Gordon |
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Gordon
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