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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: NoR v SIs
    Posted: 10 Dec 14 at 10:47am
OK, but if the protest committee does decide that there was a right side and a wrong side, I have difficulty scoring a boat that broke a rule with a better score than a boat that did not break a rule.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 14 at 10:26am
I agree up to a point.

1. It is possible (but unlikely) to decide that both courses were correct. In which case no boat broke rule 28.

2. Redress does not have to be as you propose. It could be to score boats in their finishing order (after calculating corrected time if it is a handicap race).
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 14 at 10:16am
Yes, but you can't get away with that if it's a protest.

In that case the protest committee has to decide which was the correct course and then penalise all validly protested boats that broke rule 28.1.

The protest committee might then give redress to those boats, in which case appropriate redress would be to to reinstate them with scores n+1, n+2 etc where n is the number of boats that finished correctly.

That way everyone gets a score, those boats that sailed correctly score better than those that did not.


Edited by Brass - 10 Dec 14 at 10:20am
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 14 at 9:12am
Did passing the mark on one side or the other make a significant difference to the result of the race?

If not, I would suggest that any redress issue be resolved by letting the race results stand.

The conclusion - the Race Committee made an improper action that did not significantly worsen any boat's score.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 14 at 8:48am
MM, were you expecting replies to your post?

FWIW, had there been a protest or request for redress, I think, subject to what other judges might argue for, that the course prescribed in the SI was the course required, if only because the SI are the document issued later in time.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 14 at 12:18am
I'm not sure Rule 63.7 would have helped in a race I sailed in last year.  

The NOR and SIs both included the course, but the passing direction of the last mark, which lay effectively in the middle of the proper course, was changed from port in the NOR to starboard in the SIs (the committee was concerned about where to place the committee boat if they decided to shorten).  There was no warning of the change or statement of precedence in the SIs.

Given that the NOR was available weeks before the event, and the SIs only on the morning of the event, it would have been reasonable to put the course on the boat in advance to save time while rushing about before the race.

In the event there were no protests and it's possible everyone passed the same side (it was a long race and the fleet widely spread), but it seems to me that any protest regarding someone who passed according to the NOR would have been tricky to decide.  Any suggestions as to the outcome?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by MikeBz

I suspect that the clause in SIs about precedence is because in practice they tend to be issued later.  Get the NOR out good and early so people know when the event is and then write/refine the SIs over a period of time.   Not saying this is necessarily best practice but it's often what actually happens.

It's absolutely best practice to get the NOR out early and follow up with SI later (at the time you say you will issue them in the NOR).

It remains poor practice to insert a precedence of documents clause, and may, as Gordon has said, be invalid.

The way to avoid problems of inconsistency is for the organising committee of the Organising Authority to:
  1. review both the Model NOR and Model SI in Appendixes K and L to the RRS, and list all the options they wish to exercise and clauses they wish to change in the Model NOR and Model SI, and note the preferred options and changes;
  2. develop a time schedule, showing Dates for issue of NOR and SI, Entry opening and closing times and the Event Schedule details shown in rule K7 and L5;
  3. document these two and pass to a drafter to draft the NOR based on Appendix K;
  4. circulate the NOR in draft to the Race Officer, Race Committee, and a judge for comment;
  5. review the final draft, finalise the NOR and publish;
  6. determine any further instructions to be issued to the Race Committee;
  7. issue necessary instructions including the updated time schedule, and documented changes to Model NOR/SI to the Race Committee to enable the Race Committee to draft the SI.
The Race Committee should:
  1. review the NOR and the model SI in Appendix L and list all the options they wish to exercise and clauses they wish to change in the Model SI, and note the preferred options and changes and any departures they consider necessary from the NOR;
  2. further develop the time schedule provided by the OA to enable the completion of clause L5;
  3. document these two and pass to a drafter (probably the Race Officer) to draft the SI based on Appendix L;
  4. circulate the SI in draft to a judge for comment;
  5. review the final draft, finalise the SI and publish.
Note, issue drafting instructions and review drafts in committee but do NOT try to draft complex instructions in committee.  It's a one person job.

Originally posted by Rupert

Keep the NoR simple - what does it actually need? What the event is, where it is, when it is, what time it starts, how much it costs. Anything else needed, as opposed to wanted?

By all means keep the NOR simple, but you must comply with the contents required by rule J1.1 and should comply with the requirements of rule J1.2.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 6:26pm
Keep the NoR simple - what does it actually need? What the event is, where it is, when it is, what time it starts, how much it costs. Anything else needed, as opposed to wanted?
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 4:43pm
I suspect that the clause in SIs about precedence is because in practice they tend to be issued later.  Get the NOR out good and early so people know when the event is and then write/refine the SIs over a period of time.   Not saying this is necessarily best practice but it's often what actually happens.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 14 at 4:14pm
Oi!
I wasn't saying all race documents are badly written, only those in which there is a conflict...
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